Sport Cub/Carbon Cub VS Super Cub 3x3 gear differences

[Norm]

My son and his friend were killed west of Anchorage this summer in a carbon copy incident to the one that took Shaun. High bank turns about a point at low altitude, especially in windy conditions is a killer. Commonly know as a moose stall, a cub is happily flying one second and the next second its in a vertical dive with the airspeed quickly approaching red-line. I used to demo moose stalls to cub pilots and many came away pale and weak kneeded. This stall is violent with the upside wing coming over the top as the nose drops vertically. At low altitude, its only a question of how many seconds the pilot has to live. No recovery is possible in less than a thousand feet. A moose stall is nothing like the gentle mushy stalls most cub pilots are trained to recognize and handle. I agree with Norm. Its what pilots think they know but really don't know about stalls that is deadliest when pushing the "limits".

OMG!! I'm so sorry. You and I, so unfortunately, belong to the same group of parents who have experienced the "ultimate tragedy", that of losing a child.

I agree with your assessment of an accelerated Cub stall. Contrary to a few myths, the Cub, under certain steep turning circumstances, can bite you a$$ fast and suddenly. No worse than many other airfoils, but certainly not an airfoil direct from the hand of the Almighty.

What was the date of your son's accident? Or the N number of the airplane? I think I have read every NTSB fatal accident in AK since the beginning of 2008.

Deepest condolences, my friend!

Norm

[RanRan]

There is one piece of safety equipment that I would not fly without - that would an Angle-of-attack Gauge - the bright ugly LED 'christmas tree' type AOA panel mount - that cannot be missed. Airspeed in a tight turn is deceiving but not to an AOA - it's picking up the slip.

[Norm]

I think your suggestion is a good one. An AoA would probably help, but, you'd have to look at it for it to be effective. Even though it is highly visible I respectfully disagree that it can't be missed ... in *certain* situations with high levels of tension or requiring high concentration, e.g., a steep, low altitude, windy turn with attention focused outside, it's amazing how one's field of vision narrows. The eyes and ears are avenues to the mind but sometimes the mind prioritizes and is selective and blocks them out.

Most unfortunately, Shaun's 1954 S-Cub did not have a stall warning horn (per the regulations of the type certificate). I suggested he have CC install one ~ but he was very opposed to it ... didn't want that thing "constantly buzzing in my ear", he said. You might not see an AoA but you'd hear an annoying stall warner ~ if the mind was not overloaded and was permitting sensory stimuli to be processed.

However, I don't think having a stall warner onboard is the solution, either, as stall-warner-equipped airplanes ~ even with AoA's on the panel, I'm sure ~ also manage to be victims of moose stalls with amazing regularity.

I think the best piece of safety equipment is altitude.

Why is it that we get in a Turbo 210 and fly straight out to 500' AGL before we make a max 30* bank turn ... and similarly turn base to final at a minimum 500' AGL ... and we then climb in a "bush" plane and start turning just above the tree tops? I'm not suggesting that this is the practice of many Cub owners, but it seems to be far more prevalent in this type of airplane. Physics and aerodynamics apply to a Cub the same as a T-210.

I'm sure that I am a bit sensitive to safety due to Shaun's accident. I hope by my willingness to talk about it we can save someone else from the same fate. Then, there might be some redeeming value in this horrific loss of life. Again, my deepest condolences to reileyr for his nearly identical loss of his son in a PA-11 this past August in Alaska. These accidents just keep happening, folks!! Both of our son's Cubs stalled at low altitude and went straight into the earth w no possible chance of recovery. And they were "experienced" pilots, for whatever value that may be ... ?

I'm also concerned about the current popular wave of Alaskan bush flying that is taking the public attention by storm ~ and many pilots. I've watched TV specials recently by Nat Geographic and another one (can't think of the name right now) and as is typical in these films they over-dramatize the dangers. Sometimes I almost think they are glorifying taking chances and having narrow escapes. Lip service is dutifully paid to safety, but the footage and script suggest something else. BTW, a shot Shaun's accident site is in 2 of the 3 Nat Geo's recent "Alaska Wing Men" series (1st and 3rd episode).

But I guess stories of safe flying don't get the attention of our friends or viewers like the ones spiced with some element of danger and suspense ...

Good discussion, RanRan, though we've gone far afield of the original OP's post of the 3x3, thanks to me. We can return to the original discussion anytime now.

Fly safe, my friends.

Norm

[RanRan]

I think your suggestion is a good one. An AoA would probably help, but, you'd have to look at it for it to be effective. Even though it is highly visible I respectfully disagree that it can't be missed ... in *certain* situations with high levels of tension or requiring high concentration, e.g., a steep, low altitude, windy turn with attention focused outside,...

Then put the guage outside. The Wright brothers had a solid solution on their first plane: they attached a stick coming straight from the wing (don't know if it was on the cord-line, doesn't matter.) Tied a piece of yearn to the end of it and glued a portion of a protractor next to the yarn. AOA gauge. The relationship of wind to the wing. Basic, fundamentally critical, stuff.

Now imagine one of those on each wing, about mid-wing - it's an average spot with the wing twist.

So you're looking out, as you should be, 80% of the time. And you're in a high banked turn looking down as you turn downwind and there's a penny's worth of yarn is telling you that your low wing is quickly going to crap. And your high faster moving wing yarn (which you are not looking at because, hopefully, you're reacting to other yarn) would tell you that it's got a moment or two of crazy kind of lift LEFT - just enough to roll you over. You compensate to find, too late, that there is no lift on either wing - a stall had occurred without a shutter or shake.* (*Or seems so in + g's). Your angle-of-attack must be paramount in your pilot thinking - it's the ONLY thing that keeps you in the air. It should be called the angle-of-healthy-wings - that's the real meaning of the term AOA.

Without the silly protractor, the Wrights had the best AOA gauge ever invented, and that on the very first plane.

That's my yarn yarn. ;-)

[Norm]

Then put the guage outside.

A very good friend, and my 1st flight instructor in 1973, is now a chief pilot for a large company flying an assortment of business jets based out of the SE United States. (Early in his career he flew SuperCubs and C-180s in the Peruvian jungle.) He recently sent me this email:

"I once observed a very experienced captain who was concentrating on making a smooth takeoff in a jet, not hear two very clear radio calls from a Bonanza pilot who was passing overhead the airport and announcing his position on Unicom as he should. After we reached 400 feet or so in the jet, the Bonanza pilot made a THIRD radio call, and the Captain angrily shouted on the radio that he should not be flying over without announcing his position, which he had of course done. I heard all three calls, but since we were not on a collision course I had elected not to disturb the flying pilot's concentration, since he would have ignored me anyway. The Bonanza pilot replied that he had called, which in fact he had, but the captain never would accept that he had missed two clear radio calls." .

The mind is a funny thing, indeed.

[RanRan]

The mind is a funny thing, indeed.

Oh, I agree, Norm. I've met ex-sailors who cursed the ocean, you know, the physics of it all. If we take out air and water, that leaves land - which is the least safest of all in traveling some distance.