Solo in a FX-3?

[hawgdrvr]

When I was considering buying an EX-3 I got a quote for insurance requiring 10 hours dual and 5 hours solo. How can you solo in a E/FX-3 when you can't rent them as they are experimental?

I am going to TacAero training in Jan in TX but I'm not sure if I can solo their FX-3. I'm waiting to hear back. But when you get these types of requirements for insurance on a purchase it seems there are some challenges in getting time in type.

I'm also facing issues where insurance wants time in a specific type. I just completed my TW endorsement in a CC11 (sport cub) and it sounds like that time in type wouldn't work towards a SS or FX3 for example per insurance. While it builds TW time there seems to be very unique challenges in getting insurance so anyone that has not crossed this path beware and do your homework. I am going to TacAero training at a pretty penny so that will help my situation but it seems this part of the equation is not well communicated.

I was asked to ferry a E-LSA SS for a friend and it looks like as insurance requires 10 hours in a E-LSA SS to be able to ferry (or 25 hours for that matter) so I'm out for helping in that situation and/or gaining time in the process. Again, very interesting situations.

So again, back to my question, 91.319 I think is the reg, you can't rent a FX-3 so how would someone build solo time?

[Clay Hammond]

That is definitely a catch 22 and it sounds like broker and/or underwriter are not well educated in light/general aviation, which is getting more and more common. Short of re-negotiating and/or re-educating your insurance providers, you have the option of flying your aircraft uninsured for the first 5 hours of solo. You assume the risk rather than your underwriter...that's what it comes down to. There's very good reasons NOT to do the above, but it is a means to an end...

An alternative would be to find a buddy who's open pilot warranty would cover you based on overall experience versus time in specific type, and convince him to let you solo it.

In the vein of re-negotiating...two things:

• can you convince them to let you solo something else that you CAN get access to?
• Can you re-negotiate your deductible for the first year? Higher deductible might allow you to solo with coverage from the outset, but you are assuming more of the financial downfall if there were a claim.

These are all things I would consider as options and then make my own personal decision based on my desired outcome.

[hawgdrvr]

Thanks Clay, I will be looking at all options, first and foremost getting this solo requirement lifted if possible. While I have 0 TW solo time as of now, 10.6 TW is all dual as I just got my TW endorsement. Over the coming months I'll have TacAero FX3 training, not sure if they will allow me to solo their FX3 outside of their dual. I will also get some solo TW time before taking delivery next May/June. I hope I can fly whatever TacAero has at Hood River while waiting for my delivery as I'll have a few weeks between final build week and final delivery to get some flight time assuming I can find something to fly.

I probably won't be able to fall under Open Pilot Warranty as I don't have 25 hours yet of TW time, the other paramaters have to be reviewed as well. It's very interesting too how some of these are wanting time in the exact same type and weight certification making things complicated.

I'm glad my friend Bob caught this in our recent insurance discussions, I didn't notice the SOLO requirement. I can't imagine someone showing up to take delivery to find out these hurdles. As I'll likely be financing that throws a cog into it, if paying cash that's where certainly flying the first few hours could be flown at risk, but if under the reins of financing it may not be an option.

Thanks for the reply. Biggest thing for others going down this road as I have, and I'm far from the first, beware of "in type" or "exact type and weight (i.e. LSA)" catches as insurance has vice grips in the wrong places right now.

[Andy]

"So again, back to my question, 91.319 I think is the reg, you can't rent a FX-3 so how would someone build solo time?"

You said you are going to TacAero to get instruction in their FX-3. They are going to be renting you the FX-3 and you will also be paying (a lot) for the instructor. TacAero is able to rent you the FX-3 because they operate under a LODA (Letter of Deviation Authority).

Renting the FX-3 is not the problem. Flying it solo with your very low tail wheel time may be.

I found it quite difficult to get insurance for my new FX-3 despite having time in quite a few different tail wheel aircraft. Only two underwriters were willing to quote. One, after a lot of wrangling, accepted my tail wheel experience and only required me to receive FX-3 ground instruction. I actually had 2 hours FX-3 pilot in command time before I took delivery of mine. The last minute surprise was that, until phase 1 was completed, I had a deductible of 10% of insured hull value.

The only other insurance available had no hull insurance at all until the first 10 hours and lots of landings had been completed. I accepted the 10% deductible and my phase I flight test plan was designed to get the time I needed with the absolute minimum number of takeoffs and landings.

I first flew tail wheel airplanes about 40 years ago and had no idea that getting insurance for an FX-3 would be any issue. I would strongly advise anyone considering an FX-3 to get insurance quotes before making a deposit on the airplane.

[Andy]

The FAA ref is here:

https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v...03_011_001.pdf

It's a while since I had read it and, although the LODA may allow renting of an experimental aircraft for flight instruction, I see no provision for renting for solo flight.

[40m]

Even if I were insured I personally wouldn't climb into an airplane of this caliber without ample TW time. Define ample, that's when you have been humbled enough that you leave your ego behind each and every time you climb into this airplane! It only matters that this is a tailwheel airplane for 3-5 seconds on takeoff and the seconds between touch down and stop but those are the humbling seconds. Find someone and buy as many takeoff and landings as you can afford in anything tailwheel. Tac is there to help with these CC ownership transitions. Ask them about insurance companies, they may be able to help. Enjoy the journey.

[hawgdrvr]

Andy, that's what I thought, thanks. It's not just the FX-3, it's EXPERIMENTAL so this is a broad issue. Either one that is new based on the changing insurance industry or one that has just been handled by people taking risk in the past. I don't know, this is all new to me. I just completed training in a Sport Cub (10.6 TW) and will proceed to TacAero in Jan for their training, hopefully some flying while out in AZ, and hopefully more flying at Hood River awaiting my FX-3 completion after final builder week in May.

If this is a relatively new problem my suggestion is that CubCrafters needs to provide the remedy. We pay a hefty deposit, that shows our commitment. Now if insurance is going to position their customers to need time in type, they should make the type available to their customers. For example, I'll need a FX-3 to solo for 5 hours. I'll prove my checkout via TacAero but they can't let me solo. Therefore the sales folks need to have every type available that they sell to make available to their prospective customers to fly to meet these requirements. I'm not saying each salesman needs every type, customers can fly to wherever the aircraft are to get their needed time. In my case I need 5 hours solo in a FX-3 so my salesman would help me find the available FX-3 and I would go fly it, I'd pay for gas but not a rental fee. This allows me to properly purchase the aircraft from CubCrafters. With that said, based on weather, the planes should be moved around, i.e. the south (AZ, TX, etc.) are great areas to stage the planes to be flown during the winter months.

I think there is a remedy to this problem and hopefully CubCrafters can step up to ensure their customers are qualified to take the keys, i.e. make available the aircraft that present this problem (E-LSA, EX-3, FX-3, etc.). In my case I plan to finance, finance may need proof of insurance to complete the loan. This is the catch.

[Andy]

"If this is a relatively new problem my suggestion is that CubCrafters needs to provide the remedy."

It is not new that insurance carriers can set whatever experience requirements they choose to. What may be new is that there may be far fewer insurance carriers who want our business. It's also true that the FX-3 has a rather poor accident history. People who roll them up in a ball are making harder, and more expensive, for those that don't (or haven't yet).

Given the loss rate, I'm surprised that any carrier would insure someone for an FX-3 with less than 100 hours tail wheel time. I had a hard enough time with nearly 600 hours and nearly 2,000 landings in tail wheel airplanes.

I'd suggest you ask your insurance provider to waive the FX-3 solo time on condition that you offer far more recent tail wheel time. The FX-3 is no harder to fly than a Super Cub or Husky as long as you advance the throttle at a reasonable rate. I think TacAero has a fleet of Super Cubs. There were lots parked at KDLS where I refueled every day of my phase 1 fly-off.

If CubCrafters has any obligation I think it would be to tell customers to get insurance quotes before they accept a deposit.

When I found out how hard it was to get insurance, and found out how much TacAero was charging, I toyed with the idea of applying for a LODA myself and giving FX-3 instruction. When I thought about it more I decided that I'd probably need to charge more than TacAero to make the risk acceptable.

[chipallen]

You and I need to discuss this. It’s all a matter of the insurance company understanding cub flying. I have been with the same company for 15 years and we very seldom have any issues getting our customers covered. In their world, a Cub is a Cub is a Cub and it doesn’t much matter if your solo tail wheel time is in a PA 18 or a CC 11. This isn’t a hard and fast rule, but it is certainly a subject for discussion with the insurance company. Although you might pay a higher premium the first year, after that you are good to go. Give me a call when you get a chance.

[hawgdrvr]

We'll sort it out Chip, it just came to my attention this week as I didn't see it back in the EX-3 purchase experience. Ladd is the one I'm working through and I know he understands all this. My plan is to go to TacAero, get FX3 training, work with Rick and his contact in AZ and build TW time, do more TW flying at Hood River awaiting my plane, etc. We'll chat, I've used up too many Chip Allen minutes to date, waiting for replenishment