Trim setting for take off and landing?

[Dan L]

Recently I made a comment on supercub.org about my trim positions for take off and landing. This was on a thread about the new FX3. A poster on that site, who also posts here, didn’t think much of my technique. So I thought it would be more appropriate to bring up a discussion about trim here rather than on that thread.

So the question is how are other Carbon Cub pilots setting their trim during these two phases of flight? Do you trim for a neutral stick, nose down or nose up? The other fellow, who I hope takes part in this discussion, likes nose up trim.

My choice is full nose down trim for both. And I should mention that I’m flying an early EX on 31s. I know tail feathers have changed a bit over time and that the EX/ FX2 and 3 have more nose down trim that early versions. And they also have different and better balanced flaps.

When I get into the pattern or close to the landing area I pull one notch of flaps around 65 MPH. This wants to pitch the nose up some and I immediately trim full nose down. About the time I’m trimmed like this I’ll pull a second notch. It also means I’m now pulling some back stick to keep the nose from pitching too far down. I like this feel. It just seems right to me to be holding some back pressure on the stick during this phase of flight. As I get closer to touching and having rolled out onto final I pull the third notch of flaps. Less back stick pressure is needed with full flaps and reduced airspeed.

My AOA is also increasing and the plane is definitely behind the curve. I’m holding 1300 rpm or so and slowly reducing that as I get closer to touching. Airspeed is in the 40s and at touchdown my airspeed indicator is mid 30s. I like a tail low wheel landing and once the mains touch I release what stick pressure remains bringing the tail up and coming to a stop with the tail up most of the way. I’m also usually on the brakes and the elevator and brake pressure keep the tail where I want it. This seems very natural and comfortable to me with the tail wanting to fly. I only three point it when on skis or soft stuff, like sand.

I’ve tried other trim positions and methods and this technique yields the shortest landings for me. And I have several thousand landings in this airplane now.

For take off I leave the trim where it was for landing. Full nose down trim along with two notches of flaps pops the tail up quickly and within a second or two the plane is off. The airspeed indicator is showing about 25. After I’ve gained a little speed the flaps are milked off and the trim is on its way to a neutral setting. This too results in the shortest take offs for me. And I’ve tried other trim settings and take offs from the three point attitude. I like to get the tail up quickly too for best visibility.

When I test flew the FX2 In 2015 I used these exact same methods and got the same results. And the FX2 has an inch or more of nose down jack screw travel than my EX. I used all of it.

What are the rest of you using?

[Springloaded]

Dan
You have to use what works best for you. You asked me about my technique so I explained best i could. There might be some higher time CC guys out there then me but won't be many. If someone can land there cub with no wind consistently under 100' I would stick to what your doing. No wind It's 25' from road to end of runway lights so I'm guessing I did it in 40-50'. The guy videoing is at the threshold marker which is 150' from edge of road. That's pretty normal for me when I'm playing at home I try to stop before the light. I've been within inches of it a few times. So for me my technique works well. I was in Kansas Couple weeks ago I landed in a 800' field down in a hole surrounded by 80'+ trees with a honest 35MPH tailwind 2 people fully loaded. (I forgot my IPAD one way in and out guess I could of had him ship it)I don't feel your technique would of got the same result. I see people use you technique a lot especially SC guys I never felt they ever landed very short to my standards.

[Springloaded]

Here we go😀

[ATXCubDriver]

I think a big difference in Dan's technique and Chucks is that Chuck is always at 3 pt full stall at touchdown and other than braking effect his tail isn't coming up period. Dan is actually doing a wheel landing. Huge difference in Chuck's touchdown speed and Dan's mid 30's. Chuck is easily under 30. Nothing wrong with either just preference. I think the other thing is obvious is how one likes to hold pressure. Dan likes to hold the stick back, Chuck isn't holding much pressure at all unless he introduces power to change his touchdown point. Personally, I don't like holding back pressure on the stick in the landing phase. If one becomes distracted or for some reason you have to let go of the stick its an immediate nose over situation and I would prefer it be going the other direction.

Again, No right or wrong here if it works it works but as pilots we should be open to listening how others are doing it and even if you disagree maybe go play with it and see what happens. It broadens ones mind in ways beyond your imagination otherwise you would have already thought of it and tried it and nobody would ever ask questions!!

[Dan L]

Thanks for commenting Chuck. Maybe you could describe in more detail your technique? All I know is you like full up trim. What speeds are you putting in flaps and trimming like you do? What kind of ground speeds?

I’ve tried full up trim and would say there wasn’t any position I disliked more. Or that seemed to prolong the run as much. Especially for take off. 😀

I’m sure you’ve got more hours in a CC than I do. But I do have between 2500 and 3000 landings in mine. And I’m sure my landings on pavement aren’t more than 50. Someday I’ll add them up again. This isn’t the only plane I fly. I did own a PA18 prior to building this EX and in it I did not use full nose down trim. I’d trim it slightly nose down but not much.

I am going to try the up-nose trim again. That’s why I started the discussion. I’m really into making all my takeoffs and landings as short as they can be and if a change in my technique will do that I’m all for it. And for many of the places I land I need the visibility that getting the tail up quickly on take off and keeping it up on landing offers. Too many obstacles to avoid.

EC5A7134-9E6D-4B72-A272-F5C7AC802B81.jpg

[Springloaded]

Not sure I'm full trim up. Can't say I know. Have no idea what my speeds or rpm is I just don't look or care. I know when it feels right. When I do demos I'm in the back and I can here and feel the plane. (If the plane pitches up when you pull a notch of flaps your wayyy to fast.) When I help people transition in to a CC I teach them pitch attitude it stays the same the whole way in till the flare. I'm on my 5th CC same set of 31s so not much pavement time and they were used when I bought them. I generally look for a pc of grass closet to fuel pump and land regardless of the wind. Anybody who traveled anywhere with me knows I'm probably gonna land in the most unfavorable place but convenient to pump or as Mike can confirm I'll ask the tower for every spot there is except for what everyone else is using😀 Mike is one of the few people I've shared my technique with its very uncomfortable to most and don't want anybody bending there plane cause of me. He called me the next day told me he cut his landing down considerably. If your trimmed forward your gonna be carrying forward energy not what I want on a 100' bar or pasture ,as far as protecting tailwheel I think the prop is far more important and once I touch I'm on the brakes so tail wheel isn't a factor either. Again if it works for you stick with it.
Chuck

[Dan L]

I think a big difference in Dan's technique and Chucks is that Chuck is always at 3 pt full stall at touchdown and other than braking effect his tail isn't coming up period. Dan is actually doing a wheel landing. Huge difference in Chuck's touchdown speed and Dan's mid 30's. Chuck is easily under 30. Nothing wrong with either just preference. I think the other thing is obvious is how one likes to hold pressure. Dan likes to hold the stick back, Chuck isn't holding much pressure at all unless he introduces power to change his touchdown point. Personally, I don't like holding back pressure on the stick in the landing phase. If one becomes distracted or for some reason you have to let go of the stick its an immediate nose over situation and I would prefer it be going the other direction.

Again, No right or wrong here if it works it works but as pilots we should be open to listening how others are doing it and even if you disagree maybe go play with it and see what happens. It broadens ones mind in ways beyond your imagination otherwise you would have already thought of it and tried it and nobody would ever ask questions!!

Well-put Mike. And I think you're right, the big difference is Chuck likes 3-point and I like a wheel landing. I'm just not a good enough pilot to be able to hit my spot with a 3-pointer. With a wheel landing it is much easier for me to plant the mains precisely where I want them. And once I'm on the ground I want to be able to steer around debris, rocks or holes as needed. And to do that I need to be able to see where I'm going.

I respect those that like 3-point landings. I'm just not one of them except where the surface is soft.

IMG_0245.jpg

This was a fun place to land. A friend landed this first and I took the picture then. We landed on the little gravel bar just off this Cub's tail aiming the roll-out towards the top of the picture. For me, places like this demand seeing where I'm going. And getting stopped quickly.

IMG_0057.jpg

I like this picture because it shows where the mains touched.

landing_15.jpg

All fun but the consequences of missing the mark are big. Note my trim position.

[ATXCubDriver]

Looks like some fun flying up in your part of the country.

Well-put Mike. And I think you're right, the big difference is Chuck likes 3-point and I like a wheel landing. I'm just not a good enough pilot to be able to hit my spot with a 3-pointer. With a wheel landing it is much easier for me to plant the mains precisely where I want them. And once I'm on the ground I want to be able to steer around debris, rocks or holes as needed. And to do that I need to be able to see where I'm going.

I respect those that like 3-point landings. I'm just not one of them except where the surface is soft.

IMG_0245.jpg

This was a fun place to land. A friend landed this first and I took the picture then. We landed on the little gravel bar just off this Cub's tail aiming the roll-out towards the top of the picture. For me, places like this demand seeing where I'm going. And getting stopped quickly.

IMG_0057.jpg

I like this picture because it shows where the mains touched.

landing_15.jpg

All fun but the consequences of missing the mark are big. Note my trim position.

[Dan L]

Looks like some fun flying up in your part of the country.

Actually those pictures are from Alaska. But we've got some fun places here too.

IMG_1452.jpg

This is on our ranch.

I flew today and wanted to try up-nose trim 3-pointers. There's no doubt that holding it off until it stalls results in a slower ground speed at touchdown. I couldn't see though that my trim position made a difference for landings. I tried full nose-down, full nose-up and in between. About 15 total. And I'd throw in one of my normal wheel-landings now and then for comparison. My touchdown airspeeds were mid-20's for the full stalls.

For take-offs I did the same, and for me and my plane, full nose down trim gets me launched the quickest.

I had a crosswind the entire time and that made landing, with the nose much higher than I'm used to, a bit more of a challenge. I prefer the flatter AOA of my normal wheel landings.

Both landings and take-offs were about 5 seconds. And for take-off I was throwing in full aileron deflection in the crosswind until that wing came down.

I'll give it a try again, as I have in the past, but my preference in trim position hasn't changed.

What are the rest of you using? Surely Chuck and I aren't the only guys that have been experimenting.

[Springloaded]

[QUOTE=Dan L;20193]Actually those pictures are from Alaska. But we've got some fun places here too.

Yes it's a cool place to fly for sure I was lucky to spend a few day out there last year.