Landings, techniques, cross winds...

[seastar]

RickB
I Learned to fly in a J3 Cub in 1963. As soon as I had my private I bought a 172 and had not flown a tail wheel airplane since then.
When I ordered my CC it seemed wise to prepare so I had 15 hours of instruction in a Super Cub from a great instructor at the North Palm Beach Airport, Jim Alsip.
When my airplane was delivered I had another 6 hours of instruction in crosswinds of up to 20 knots from another very competent tail wheel instructor here in central Indiana.

I landed on a narrow runway two days ago in a about an 18 knot crosswind by rolling on the upwind wheel with a little power, full flaps and then dumping the power and then the flaps as soon as the tail started down. Not Fun.
That is my limit with 150 hours in the airplane. Any more wind and I would have looked for another runway better aligned.

I prefer to be down as close to the numbers as possible so that I have the full length of the runway ahead to correct errors or land again in the event of a big bounce. (We all do that some times)
I have only landed long on major airport long runways so as not to block other, faster traffic.

To be very safe I think you should have at least 5/10 hours of additional crosswind instruction before you fly in crosswinds over 7/8 knots. Our airplanes land very slowly and that helps prevent ground loops but you can still find yourself headed for the weeds in a crosswind.
As stated, taxiing is a "whole nother" experience. Just remember to "fly" the airplane untill it' s tied down.

You will know when you are sure you can handle crosswinds using the various techniques outlined here.
Bill

[randylervold]

Yeah the taxiing is often the ultimate trick. I landed at Rapid City, SD once in a SPORT CUB with 25-30kts coming straight down the runway and steady. Landing wasn't into a crosswind, but the taxi certainly was. Touched down midfield at the taxiway exit, and then just had to "skitter" across the taxiways into the ramp, always keeping my turns into the wind, there was no way I'd ever be able to make a turn away and down from the wind. Airplane was weathervaning hard into the wind. I was using brakes, power and rudder all in concert to try and get it to the ramp. Ended up crow hopping my way over there. Rolled it into the hangar and they shut the door behind me. Met with a client and then had to go on my way, places to be and all that... Winds were over 30 at this point and starting to gust. Rolled it back out with about five guys helping to hold the airplane, had them park their fuel truck in front of me until I was strapped in, had received initial taxi clearance from Ground, and then was ready to start with two guys holding the struts at the outer attach points. Truck pulled away and I immediately cranked, waved off the line guys and started to roll into the wind and started my crow hopping back out of the ramp and onto the taxiway. Wings are rocking and its a lot gustier than it was previously. Once on the taxiway I was back straight into the wind, taxiing with the tail up most of the time but very slowly still because of the headwind component, had to go down 200 yards or so to the first runway intersection. Never made it. First big gust picked me up about a foot or so and I rode it back down. Told the Ground controller that I might have to go from there, he said try and get to the runway. Next gust picked me up about three feet and I just went full power and started to elevator up, called the Ground controller again and told him I had to go, all he said was "cleared for takeoff"... Climbed up a few hundred feet over the field and then gently turned off downwind towards my next stop.

Wow, that would have made some video, wish someone had been shooting it!!

[Clay Hammond]

Wow, that would have made some video, wish someone had been shooting it!!

Yeah...that was back in late '06 or early '07. Thankfully before YouTube and a video camera on every phone became the norm. Problem was it had been blowing locally for couple days before, and was forecasted to stay that way a few more. I was on a trip east and needed to get on...didn't want to be stuck waiting it out. Flew away from there and landed in calmer winds somewhere down in Nebraska.

[Scott Coatsworth]

Very interesting discussion. Obviously the age old arguments of wheel vs three point will never be finalized. Based on alot of tailwheel hours in midwest and mountain states in alot of gusty high wind conditions, I would suggest if landing distance not an issue (hardly ever in Carbon Cub,) that a no flap landing in gusty conditions has some advantage. Seems that the big gust always hits just as you touch down before you can dump flaps and you are airborne once again, it's also nice to have max brake capability immediately.

[Jim Harper]

OK...next question. Thanks for all the participation. How about the fairly short rough field. Kind of embarrassing to call this a short field...my home strip...I've got an honest 1000 feet at 7200 msl, and it is fairly rough. Especially for Dan L. Wheel it on then too? Is this the opportunity for the mysterious "tail low" wheel landing? Seems like a full stall would be minimum roll...but you are offering the tailwheel to the pothole gods...and that wouldn't be good. So let me guess.

Full flap, a little power, wheel it on at minimum airspeed drop the flaps, stick back and brakes?

Jim

[randylervold]

OK...next question. Thanks for all the participation. How about the fairly short rough field. Kind of embarrassing to call this a short field...my home strip...I've got an honest 1000 feet at 7200 msl, and it is fairly rough. Especially for Dan L. Wheel it on then too? Is this the opportunity for the mysterious "tail low" wheel landing? Seems like a full stall would be minimum roll...but you are offering the tailwheel to the pothole gods...and that wouldn't be good. So let me guess.

Full flap, a little power, wheel it on at minimum airspeed drop the flaps, stick back and brakes?

Jim

I've found that when landing on rough fields the plane bounces quite a bit, and not always straight, which impairs braking ability and makes control during the rollout difficult. Personally, I bring it in as slow as possible and 3-point it (full stall) so as to minimize the ground roll and speed at which the roll occurs. This might mean carrying a bit of power so as to be "behind the power curve" a bit.

That's really the only time I've ever felt out of control flying one of our planes... when bouncing along a rough runway not really flying and not really yet a ground vehicle, so minimizing this period makes sense to me and is what I do.

[Jim Harper]

I've found that when landing on rough fields the plane bounces quite a bit, and not always straight, which impairs braking ability and makes control during the rollout difficult. Personally, I bring it in as slow as possible and 3-point it (full stall) so as to minimize the ground roll and speed at which the roll occurs. This might mean carrying a bit of power so as to be "behind the power curve" a bit.

That's really the only time I've ever felt out of control flying one of our planes... when bouncing along a rough runway not really flying and not really yet a ground vehicle, so minimizing this period makes sense to me and is what I do.

That makes good sense, Randy! Do you worry about the tail wheel? I admit it appears pretty darn robust, but it has gotta be the weak link in the landing gear.

Jim

[Pete D]

I've found that when landing on rough fields the plane bounces quite a bit, and not always straight, which impairs braking ability and makes control during the rollout difficult.

Tire pressure makes a big difference with this I've found. Little bit less pressure makes a big difference in how much it bounces which makes it easier to brake becuase the tire stays more firmly in contact with the ground. Don't go too low with anything with a tube in it though becuause if you spin the tire on the wheel it'll shear the valve stem and you won't have any tire pressure!

[randylervold]

One thing I'd like to add to this thread... if you ever don't like the way a landing is going GO AROUND! I'm guessing there may not be an easier plane to do a go'round in than a Carbon Cub, please don't be reluctant to exercise that option.

[Dan L]

That makes good sense, Randy! Do you worry about the tail wheel? I admit it appears pretty darn robust, but it has gotta be the weak link in the landing gear.

Jim

Jim, I would agree that the weak link is the tail wheel. And so my opinion is that the rougher it is the more important it is to wheel land. I consider all of my wheel landings as practice for when I do land in something rough.

I have 31's with 4.5 pounds of air in them and a Baby Bushwheel tail wheel mounted on a Pawnee spring. I also went to AOSS now, replacing the standard Hydrasorbs. A better system for sure.

In a no-wind condition and at my normal density altitudes I'll touch down about 40 mph ground speed and get stopped short.

Wheel landings can be tricky in the rougher broken up stuff especially if there are dips on much depth. But they're a lot easier on the plane.

IMG_0217.jpg

Places like this are fun to land but rough on the plane in the 3-point.

IMG_0373.jpg

The baby Bushwheel tailwheel on the wider Pawnee spring. This one has the steering mechanism removed so it is free-castering.