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  1. #1
    Senior Member Dan L's Avatar
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    Default Trim setting for take off and landing?

    Recently I made a comment on supercub.org about my trim positions for take off and landing. This was on a thread about the new FX3. A poster on that site, who also posts here, didnít think much of my technique. So I thought it would be more appropriate to bring up a discussion about trim here rather than on that thread.

    So the question is how are other Carbon Cub pilots setting their trim during these two phases of flight? Do you trim for a neutral stick, nose down or nose up? The other fellow, who I hope takes part in this discussion, likes nose up trim.

    My choice is full nose down trim for both. And I should mention that Iím flying an early EX on 31s. I know tail feathers have changed a bit over time and that the EX/ FX2 and 3 have more nose down trim that early versions. And they also have different and better balanced flaps.

    When I get into the pattern or close to the landing area I pull one notch of flaps around 65 MPH. This wants to pitch the nose up some and I immediately trim full nose down. About the time Iím trimmed like this Iíll pull a second notch. It also means Iím now pulling some back stick to keep the nose from pitching too far down. I like this feel. It just seems right to me to be holding some back pressure on the stick during this phase of flight. As I get closer to touching and having rolled out onto final I pull the third notch of flaps. Less back stick pressure is needed with full flaps and reduced airspeed.

    My AOA is also increasing and the plane is definitely behind the curve. Iím holding 1300 rpm or so and slowly reducing that as I get closer to touching. Airspeed is in the 40s and at touchdown my airspeed indicator is mid 30s. I like a tail low wheel landing and once the mains touch I release what stick pressure remains bringing the tail up and coming to a stop with the tail up most of the way. Iím also usually on the brakes and the elevator and brake pressure keep the tail where I want it. This seems very natural and comfortable to me with the tail wanting to fly. I only three point it when on skis or soft stuff, like sand.

    Iíve tried other trim positions and methods and this technique yields the shortest landings for me. And I have several thousand landings in this airplane now.

    For take off I leave the trim where it was for landing. Full nose down trim along with two notches of flaps pops the tail up quickly and within a second or two the plane is off. The airspeed indicator is showing about 25. After Iíve gained a little speed the flaps are milked off and the trim is on its way to a neutral setting. This too results in the shortest take offs for me. And Iíve tried other trim settings and take offs from the three point attitude. I like to get the tail up quickly too for best visibility.

    When I test flew the FX2 In 2015 I used these exact same methods and got the same results. And the FX2 has an inch or more of nose down jack screw travel than my EX. I used all of it.

    What are the rest of you using?
    Flying Carbon Cub EX #11 since 2011

  2. #2
    Senior Member Springloaded's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trim setting for take off and landing?

    Dan
    You have to use what works best for you. You asked me about my technique so I explained best i could. There might be some higher time CC guys out there then me but won't be many. If someone can land there cub with no wind consistently under 100' I would stick to what your doing. No wind It's 25' from road to end of runway lights so I'm guessing I did it in 40-50'. The guy videoing is at the threshold marker which is 150' from edge of road. That's pretty normal for me when I'm playing at home I try to stop before the light. I've been within inches of it a few times. So for me my technique works well. I was in Kansas Couple weeks ago I landed in a 800' field down in a hole surrounded by 80'+ trees with a honest 35MPH tailwind 2 people fully loaded. (I forgot my IPAD one way in and out guess I could of had him ship it)I don't feel your technique would of got the same result. I see people use you technique a lot especially SC guys I never felt they ever landed very short to my standards.
    Last edited by Springloaded; 12-04-2017 at 05:45 AM.
    Chuck Kinberger
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    You can sit at home & hear the News or get out there & be the News

  3. #3
    Senior Member Springloaded's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trim setting for take off and landing?

    Here we go😀
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    Chuck Kinberger
    Southern Cubs
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    You can sit at home & hear the News or get out there & be the News

  4. #4
    Senior Member Californiacubs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trim setting for take off and landing?

    Hey guys! I agree with Chuck, whatever works best for you is the best technique. For what it's worth I use full nose down trim on take off. My priority on take off is the quickest acceleration possible. To accelerate as quickly as possible I want the wing at zero angle of attack, producing as little drag as possible, and the prop pulling parallel to the surface I'm taking off on. To accomplish this I want the tail up as soon as possible, I do that with full nose down trim and the stick forward until the tail is up.

    For landing I have the trim all the way aft and the stick all the way back to achieve the appropriate angle of attack for the approach.
    Ben Hodges
    California Cubs
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  5. #5
    Senior Member ATXCubDriver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trim setting for take off and landing?

    I think a big difference in Dan's technique and Chucks is that Chuck is always at 3 pt full stall at touchdown and other than braking effect his tail isn't coming up period. Dan is actually doing a wheel landing. Huge difference in Chuck's touchdown speed and Dan's mid 30's. Chuck is easily under 30. Nothing wrong with either just preference. I think the other thing is obvious is how one likes to hold pressure. Dan likes to hold the stick back, Chuck isn't holding much pressure at all unless he introduces power to change his touchdown point. Personally, I don't like holding back pressure on the stick in the landing phase. If one becomes distracted or for some reason you have to let go of the stick its an immediate nose over situation and I would prefer it be going the other direction.

    Again, No right or wrong here if it works it works but as pilots we should be open to listening how others are doing it and even if you disagree maybe go play with it and see what happens. It broadens ones mind in ways beyond your imagination otherwise you would have already thought of it and tried it and nobody would ever ask questions!!
    Mike Sasser
    Boomerang Air
    mike@boomerangair.net

    OK,AR,TX,LA
    www.cubcrafters.com




  6. #6
    Senior Member Dan L's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trim setting for take off and landing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATXCubDriver View Post
    I think a big difference in Dan's technique and Chucks is that Chuck is always at 3 pt full stall at touchdown and other than braking effect his tail isn't coming up period. Dan is actually doing a wheel landing. Huge difference in Chuck's touchdown speed and Dan's mid 30's. Chuck is easily under 30. Nothing wrong with either just preference. I think the other thing is obvious is how one likes to hold pressure. Dan likes to hold the stick back, Chuck isn't holding much pressure at all unless he introduces power to change his touchdown point. Personally, I don't like holding back pressure on the stick in the landing phase. If one becomes distracted or for some reason you have to let go of the stick its an immediate nose over situation and I would prefer it be going the other direction.

    Again, No right or wrong here if it works it works but as pilots we should be open to listening how others are doing it and even if you disagree maybe go play with it and see what happens. It broadens ones mind in ways beyond your imagination otherwise you would have already thought of it and tried it and nobody would ever ask questions!!
    Well-put Mike. And I think you're right, the big difference is Chuck likes 3-point and I like a wheel landing. I'm just not a good enough pilot to be able to hit my spot with a 3-pointer. With a wheel landing it is much easier for me to plant the mains precisely where I want them. And once I'm on the ground I want to be able to steer around debris, rocks or holes as needed. And to do that I need to be able to see where I'm going.

    I respect those that like 3-point landings. I'm just not one of them except where the surface is soft.

    IMG_0245.jpg

    This was a fun place to land. A friend landed this first and I took the picture then. We landed on the little gravel bar just off this Cub's tail aiming the roll-out towards the top of the picture. For me, places like this demand seeing where I'm going. And getting stopped quickly.

    IMG_0057.jpg

    I like this picture because it shows where the mains touched.

    landing_15.jpg

    All fun but the consequences of missing the mark are big. Note my trim position.
    Last edited by Dan L; 12-04-2017 at 09:32 AM.
    Flying Carbon Cub EX #11 since 2011

  7. #7
    Senior Member ATXCubDriver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trim setting for take off and landing?

    Looks like some fun flying up in your part of the country.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dan L View Post
    Well-put Mike. And I think you're right, the big difference is Chuck likes 3-point and I like a wheel landing. I'm just not a good enough pilot to be able to hit my spot with a 3-pointer. With a wheel landing it is much easier for me to plant the mains precisely where I want them. And once I'm on the ground I want to be able to steer around debris, rocks or holes as needed. And to do that I need to be able to see where I'm going.

    I respect those that like 3-point landings. I'm just not one of them except where the surface is soft.

    IMG_0245.jpg

    This was a fun place to land. A friend landed this first and I took the picture then. We landed on the little gravel bar just off this Cub's tail aiming the roll-out towards the top of the picture. For me, places like this demand seeing where I'm going. And getting stopped quickly.

    IMG_0057.jpg

    I like this picture because it shows where the mains touched.

    landing_15.jpg

    All fun but the consequences of missing the mark are big. Note my trim position.
    Mike Sasser
    Boomerang Air
    mike@boomerangair.net

    OK,AR,TX,LA
    www.cubcrafters.com




  8. #8
    Senior Member Dan L's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trim setting for take off and landing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATXCubDriver View Post
    Looks like some fun flying up in your part of the country.
    Actually those pictures are from Alaska. But we've got some fun places here too.

    IMG_1452.jpg

    This is on our ranch.

    I flew today and wanted to try up-nose trim 3-pointers. There's no doubt that holding it off until it stalls results in a slower ground speed at touchdown. I couldn't see though that my trim position made a difference for landings. I tried full nose-down, full nose-up and in between. About 15 total. And I'd throw in one of my normal wheel-landings now and then for comparison. My touchdown airspeeds were mid-20's for the full stalls.

    For take-offs I did the same, and for me and my plane, full nose down trim gets me launched the quickest.

    I had a crosswind the entire time and that made landing, with the nose much higher than I'm used to, a bit more of a challenge. I prefer the flatter AOA of my normal wheel landings.

    Both landings and take-offs were about 5 seconds. And for take-off I was throwing in full aileron deflection in the crosswind until that wing came down.

    I'll give it a try again, as I have in the past, but my preference in trim position hasn't changed.

    What are the rest of you using? Surely Chuck and I aren't the only guys that have been experimenting.
    Flying Carbon Cub EX #11 since 2011

  9. #9
    Senior Member Springloaded's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trim setting for take off and landing?

    [QUOTE=Dan L;20193]Actually those pictures are from Alaska. But we've got some fun places here too.

    Yes it's a cool place to fly for sure I was lucky to spend a few day out there last year.
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    Last edited by Springloaded; 12-05-2017 at 05:00 PM.
    Chuck Kinberger
    Southern Cubs
    Florida Cubcrafter Sales
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    You can sit at home & hear the News or get out there & be the News

  10. #10
    Senior Member Springloaded's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trim setting for take off and landing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATXCubDriver View Post
    Chuck is easily under 30.!


    Few days ago guy was following me around in his CC he couldn't get in one of the local strips I stopped at. Challenging but nothing crazy. So last night Went over to his house got in the back seat with him and went over showed him the approach,you have to wind through and over some trees it's one way in and out. We landed wayyy long. When we Came over trees I kept telling him (need to slow down) We ate up over half the pasture still flying in ground effect. Got him to dump the flaps got on the brakes and all was well. There is no go around at this point house and power lines. We stopped i said we were way too fast he said I was at 45. Went back to his house and we practice a few times getting him to slow down,when we stopped he told me your coming over the trees @ 35 and Airspeed is @ zero way before touch down. Thought about Dan asking what my IAS are so I went out tonight to see what they are. DYNON said I had a 5MPH direct cross wind coming in seemed perfectly calm on the ground. I tried looking on takeoff first time steam gauge was still at 0 when I got rid of the flaps and landing same thing steam gauge was 0 hard to look inside find the speed on DYNON and tell what I'm doing so I got my VIRB out so I could try and see what my speeds are. If you stop the video it looks like I left the ground IAS was just coming alive and in the teens GS. Landing IAS looks like right at 20IAS 30GS. I flew the length of the runway indicating low20s IAS low 30GS so sure my ground speed would be a little less on a decent. Video pretty shaky and it was getting dark. That was actually a lot of fun If I can figure out VIRB from being so shaky be neat to see how slow you can actually land one of these. (Good Guess Mike)
    Last edited by Springloaded; 12-20-2017 at 06:21 PM.
    Chuck Kinberger
    Southern Cubs
    Florida Cubcrafter Sales
    Jupiter Fl.
    Pa11890ck@gmail.com
    You can sit at home & hear the News or get out there & be the News

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