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Thread: Trig TY91 Loss of Sidetone

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  1. #1
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    Default Trig TY91 Loss of Sidetone

    So a few weeks back I took a Saturday AM flight. A few minutes into the flight the display on the TY91 went blank and after cycling power screen came back on. After this there was no sidetone, could not hear my voice when transmitting over radio. After about 30-40 min later sidetone came back. After landing I checked connectors and preformed ops ground check, all okay. Flew a few more times later that week without issue. Plane sat for past 2 weeks, went to fly yesterday and no sidetone again...never came back. Went home and grabbed the manual, checked to see what type of user sidetone control the unit offers. Unit was set around 10% (graphic bar readout), I adjusted this and performed ground check. If I turned it all the way up I could just make out my voice while transmitting. I tired both LEMO ports with two separate headsets, not that I thought that would make a difference as intercom function works in both positions.

    I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar issues with the Trig. I'm thinking whatever happened when the display blanked out one me might be the root cause. Oh, when display went blank I could still hear ATC and they could hear my transmissions.

    Pete


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    Pete
    ✈️CCK-1865-0078 N9PW
    Severna Park, MD W18

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    Default Re: Trig TY91 Loss of Sidetone

    Just a bit of a hunch, though my thought is that the unit suffered some internal failure since it went dark on you, but what intercom - if any - are you using? You might try turning the intercom off and seeing if anything has changed in what you hear thru the headset, I'm presuming you are getting incoming into the phones ok which would preclude any issue on the headphones side of things. If you aren't using any sort of intercom and just using the one built into the trig unit then that pretty much excludes any external problem. I am not aware of there being too many issues with the trig coms in and of themselves, we use them on the x cub combined with the pm3000 remote, but like any electronic device they can and will fail no matter how low the failure rate is. Best of luck on this.

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    Default Re: Trig TY91 Loss of Sidetone

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesutton View Post
    Just a bit of a hunch, though my thought is that the unit suffered some internal failure since it went dark on you, but what intercom - if any - are you using? You might try turning the intercom off and seeing if anything has changed in what you hear thru the headset, I'm presuming you are getting incoming into the phones ok which would preclude any issue on the headphones side of things. If you aren't using any sort of intercom and just using the one built into the trig unit then that pretty much excludes any external problem. I am not aware of there being too many issues with the trig coms in and of themselves, we use them on the x cub combined with the pm3000 remote, but like any electronic device they can and will fail no matter how low the failure rate is. Best of luck on this.
    I'm using the pm3000 as well, standard wVFR panel setup. Flew again and no sidetone, then back it came, another 2.5hrs that day and sidetone was there entire time. Intercom seems to be working fine. Thinking unit issue as well. Looked over Trig warranty, 2yrs from "date of installation by certified installer" wondering how that works for E-AB? Luckily the units see,s to be pretty inexpensive so thinking I might just order another as a backup. Wish I lived somewhere that radio wasn't a life or death requirement


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    Default Re: Trig TY91 Loss of Sidetone

    Two months does seem short lived, interesting to me that it died a slow death versus going out quickly. I presume it suffered the same fate as previously, black screen as well or just no sidetone? I know this drill gets old fast, having to try and isolate what is and isnt working. You are getting headset audio from the com itself - with the intercom off you can still hear ground or atis, and you can communicate between the front and back seats thru the intercom correct?

    If the only thing that isnt right is that you have no sidetone when transmitting, and you can hear and speak thru the intercom then you have just proven that the mic and headphone wiring to and from the jacks and to and from the intercom is correct. If you can hear ground or atis or another aircraft then your receive portion of the radio is working and you again have proven the jack wiring, same with intercom..if you can talk between front and back, it has to be within the com.

    One thing you might check, just because it may get asked about, is the vswr of the antenna itself. Make sure its around 2.0 or less, up to 2.5 is marginal and over 2.5 is high. That tends to be more of a transmitted audio problem but who knows how the Trig unit might deal with it internally. That I am aware of we have not had large amounts of problems with the Trig, though I am not in a position to hear about every one that has left the facility, anecdotally I have not heard about them being too much of a problem child.

    Best of luck on this

    Mike Sutton
    Cubcrafters Avionics

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    Default Re: Trig TY91 Loss of Sidetone

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesutton View Post
    Two months does seem short lived, interesting to me that it died a slow death versus going out quickly. I presume it suffered the same fate as previously, black screen as well or just no sidetone? I know this drill gets old fast, having to try and isolate what is and isnt working. You are getting headset audio from the com itself - with the intercom off you can still hear ground or atis, and you can communicate between the front and back seats thru the intercom correct?

    If the only thing that isnt right is that you have no sidetone when transmitting, and you can hear and speak thru the intercom then you have just proven that the mic and headphone wiring to and from the jacks and to and from the intercom is correct. If you can hear ground or atis or another aircraft then your receive portion of the radio is working and you again have proven the jack wiring, same with intercom..if you can talk between front and back, it has to be within the com.

    One thing you might check, just because it may get asked about, is the vswr of the antenna itself. Make sure its around 2.0 or less, up to 2.5 is marginal and over 2.5 is high. That tends to be more of a transmitted audio problem but who knows how the Trig unit might deal with it internally. That I am aware of we have not had large amounts of problems with the Trig, though I am not in a position to hear about every one that has left the facility, anecdotally I have not heard about them being too much of a problem child.

    Best of luck on this

    Mike Sutton
    Cubcrafters Avionics
    MIke,

    Thanks for the response. Yes the only issue is not side tone. Intercom works perfect, i can hear any and all frequencies I tune in and they can hear me too. Needless to say I have been asking all I speak to over the radio how they hear me and all have been loud and clear, just as I hear them.

    The side tone, as it did previously, didn't just go away and stay away. Just one start up it wasn't there and then a few transmissions later there it was. Then stuck around for a few flights, then gone never to be heard from again.

    VSWR wasn't something I'd ever heard of previously but after some googling I got some more info. The ant and ant cabling I installed was what came with the wVFR panel kit package.

    I'll have to do some more investigations to see how and what is needed to measure VSWR of my ant and coax.


    Pete Meyer
    Severna Park, MD
    CCK-1865-0078
    ✈️N9PW
    Pete
    ✈️CCK-1865-0078 N9PW
    Severna Park, MD W18

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    Default Re: Trig TY91 Loss of Sidetone

    Well Im throwing a dart here, since I cant get any closer to your aircraft, but the only thing I might do if I was trouble shooting would be to turn off the intercom and see if you can still hear your sidetone on transmitting. I have seen sidetone issues that turned out to be on the phone side rather than the mic side, but I dont think thats your situation and if you can hear atis or any other incoming transmission in your phones then that side is ok and it would have to be on the mic side, turning off the intercom simply removes it from the equation because the audio signals simply pass thru it when off. You could also try using standard non anr headset to verify that its not in the headset but again, I think it has pretty much divulged itself to be in the com. Interesting that its somewhat intermittent, I could see where a wire could become an intermittent issue but that usually becomes a permanent one once they are separated. The fact it went dark on you and then came back seems to be evidence to me. As far as any warranty issues, thats completely out of my provenance entirely, I just install them and fix them, but if its internal to the unit I dont mess with them. Best of luck on this.

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    Default Re: Trig TY91 Loss of Sidetone

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesutton View Post
    Well Im throwing a dart here, since I cant get any closer to your aircraft, but the only thing I might do if I was trouble shooting would be to turn off the intercom and see if you can still hear your sidetone on transmitting. I have seen sidetone issues that turned out to be on the phone side rather than the mic side, but I dont think thats your situation and if you can hear atis or any other incoming transmission in your phones then that side is ok and it would have to be on the mic side, turning off the intercom simply removes it from the equation because the audio signals simply pass thru it when off. You could also try using standard non anr headset to verify that its not in the headset but again, I think it has pretty much divulged itself to be in the com. Interesting that its somewhat intermittent, I could see where a wire could become an intermittent issue but that usually becomes a permanent one once they are separated. The fact it went dark on you and then came back seems to be evidence to me. As far as any warranty issues, thats completely out of my provenance entirely, I just install them and fix them, but if its internal to the unit I dont mess with them. Best of luck on this.
    Mike,

    Thanks for the help, I did try with intercom turned off as well. No change. Now that it's working again it's really hard to track down. I haven't tried the non-ANR headsets but I will the next time it fails. Currently it works, even when I lose sidetone so that's a plus. It's just tough to talk and not hear yourself. I'm going to reach out to Trig and see what their thoughts are, both about the issues as well as their interpretation of the warranty.

    Today looks like a nice day so I hope to get up this afternoon and do some more troubleshooting.

    Pete


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    Default Re: Trig TY91 Loss of Sidetone

    Im not actually certain that the VSWR will be the culprit, if its too high the amount of transmitted power that is reflected back down the coax to the radio is so high that it seriously reduces your range when you transmit and it also damages the transmitter over a long enough time period. What Im reading here does not make me think its a vswr issue but not knowing the internal design of the trig unit, it would not hurt to check it.

    We use a Bird thruline watt meter, but I doubt youd want to buy one for a one time check, you can also use one for any HF/VHF communication, typically they will handle up to 100w. They are common within the amateur radio community and I cant think of an avionics shop that wouldnt have one. Id bet you can find someone who has access to one and maybe you can get them to check your aircraft. It just goes in series between the com and the antenna and you measure the transmitted and the reflected power levels.

    Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason in this stuff, sorry to say. Ive seen the very rare problem child that just does not respond, it will pass bench tests and work fine for some time period and then it wont, but those are rare. If you have a clean install, which it appears you do, and the rest of the audio is ok and it appears it is, sidetone is pretty limited to what is created inside the radio. The fact it is in a kit should be pretty much irrelevant.

    Thanks

    Mike Sutton
    Cubcrafters Avionics
    Last edited by mikesutton; 08-01-2017 at 09:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Trig TY91 Loss of Sidetone

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesutton View Post
    Im not actually certain that the VSWR will be the culprit, if its too high the amount of transmitted power that is reflected back down the coax to the radio is so high that it seriously reduces your range when you transmit and it also damages the transmitter over a long enough time period. What Im reading here does not make me think its a vswr issue but not knowing the internal design of the trig unit, it would not hurt to check it.

    We use a Bird thruline watt meter, but I doubt youd want to buy one for a one time check, you can also use one for any HF/VHF communication, typically they will handle up to 100w. They are common within the amateur radio community and I cant think of an avionics shop that wouldnt have one. Id bet you can find someone who has access to one and maybe you can get them to check your aircraft. It just goes in series between the com and the antenna and you measure the transmitted and the reflected power levels.

    Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason in this stuff, sorry to say. Ive seen the very rare problem child that just does not respond, it will pass bench tests and work fine for some time period and then it wont, but those are rare. If you have a clean install, which it appears you do, and the rest of the audio is ok and it appears it is, sidetone is pretty limited to what is created inside the radio. The fact it is in a kit should be pretty much irrelevant.

    Thanks

    Mike Sutton
    Cubcrafters Avionics
    Thanks for the explanation, I actually know a few armature radio guys who are also avionics techs. I'll bounce it off them. I've also reached back out to Bruce and MidContinent and see what his thoughts are. I'll let you know what I find out.

    Pete


    Pete Meyer
    Severna Park, MD
    CCK-1865-0078
    ✈️N9PW
    Pete
    ✈️CCK-1865-0078 N9PW
    Severna Park, MD W18

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    Default Re: Trig TY91 Loss of Sidetone

    Glad I could at least try to help, the fact that the intercom itself works leads me to believe that it is in the com. I usually will try the radio by itself and then the intercom by itself on these types of problems, and also use a standard headset so I can hear - or not hear - whatever it is that I am looking for. The fact that the tower can hear you when you transmit out even if you cant also leads me to think its internal to the box. Many times you will find a set of aux jacks that are wired directly to the com on intercom equipped aircraft that bypass it entirely in the event of a failure or the removal of the intercom, and often on those you dont hear the sidetone at all unless you are transmitting, so again, if you still arent then it leads me to further think its an internal com issue.

    Mike

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