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Thread: New Carbon Cub - ADS-B Out Options?

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  1. #1
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    Default New Carbon Cub - ADS-B Out Options?

    Has anyone gotten a Carbon Cub lately that has ADS-B in/out installed with other than the Garmin touch option?

    Is there an way with the World VFR panel to get ADS-B out? I know ADS-B in can be done with the Garmin GDL 39 3D ADS-B in the World VFR panel.

    Jon
    Last edited by txcub; 03-17-2016 at 01:40 PM.

  2. #2
    Member Dickey's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Carbon Cub - ADS-B Out Options?

    Hi Jon,

    The World Panel is equipped with the Trig TT21 or optional TT22 transponder. These transponders are able produce the extended squitter signal that is ADS-B but there are a couple of issues you need to be aware of.

    1. In the U.S., the transponder that is producing the ADS-B signal must be producing no less than 125 watts at the antenna. The TT21 output rating is 125 nominal (meaning that once installed in the aircraft, the wiring and installation could cause the output to diminish slightly. If you have a TT22 you're in good shape because its nominal output is 250 watts.

    2. The transponder must be getting its GPS position from a compliant position source and handheld/portable devices do not meet this requirement. Trig offers the TN70 which is a remotely mounted (no user interface) GPS that feeds the transponder with compliant position data. It comes with a WAAS antenna.

    3. To be compliant, the ADS-B signal is required to report "Ground Status" when on the ground and "Airborne Status" when in the air. No more switching to stand-by when on the ground. This "switching" can not be done by the pilot, it has to be automatic (the "A" in ADS-B stands for automatic). The Trig transponders can only do this automatic switching via a weight on wheels switch or an airspeed switch. Since a "squat" switch is not possible on the Carbon Cub, the airspeed switch is the only option. Be advised.........the point at which the airspeed trips the switch must be just below the stall speed of the aircraft to prevent erroneous status messages when in slow flight or final approach.

    Are you looking to upgrade your existing World Panel or looking for advise on a new aircraft?


    -Matt Dickey-
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    Matt Dickey
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: New Carbon Cub - ADS-B Out Options?

    Matt

    Thanks for the explanation. Looks like it's not possible with World Panel.

    Jon

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    Hi Jon,

    The World Panel is equipped with the Trig TT21 or optional TT22 transponder. These transponders are able produce the extended squitter signal that is ADS-B but there are a couple of issues you need to be aware of.

    1. In the U.S., the transponder that is producing the ADS-B signal must be producing no less than 125 watts at the antenna. The TT21 output rating is 125 nominal (meaning that once installed in the aircraft, the wiring and installation could cause the output to diminish slightly. If you have a TT22 you're in good shape because its nominal output is 250 watts.

    2. The transponder must be getting its GPS position from a compliant position source and handheld/portable devices do not meet this requirement. Trig offers the TN70 which is a remotely mounted (no user interface) GPS that feeds the transponder with compliant position data. It comes with a WAAS antenna.

    3. To be compliant, the ADS-B signal is required to report "Ground Status" when on the ground and "Airborne Status" when in the air. No more switching to stand-by when on the ground. This "switching" can not be done by the pilot, it has to be automatic (the "A" in ADS-B stands for automatic). The Trig transponders can only do this automatic switching via a weight on wheels switch or an airspeed switch. Since a "squat" switch is not possible on the Carbon Cub, the airspeed switch is the only option. Be advised.........the point at which the airspeed trips the switch must be just below the stall speed of the aircraft to prevent erroneous status messages when in slow flight or final approach.

    Are you looking to upgrade your existing World Panel or looking for advise on a new aircraft?


    -Matt Dickey-
    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Senior Member Cubrath's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Carbon Cub - ADS-B Out Options?

    It's possible, just maybe not with the equipment you have. If all you want is ADS-B out you might be in the same price range or cheaper with a complete stand alone system.

    Again, if all you want is "out" you might want to wait. Seems like more stand alone options are coming to the market and the price seems to be coming down. Remember, there are a lot of 20k airplanes out there that also need an out solution.
    Last edited by Cubrath; 03-18-2016 at 11:59 AM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: New Carbon Cub - ADS-B Out Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by txcub View Post
    Matt

    Thanks for the explanation. Looks like it's not possible with World Panel.

    Jon
    I purchased a GDL 39D and put it my Carbon Cub. I played with the setup on my TT21 working with 796
    and "tricked" into receiving both TIS A and TIS B traffic. It was great! In January I stopped being able to
    Receive TIS B traffic. Thought my GDL Was the problem. Talked to Trig in Scotland and they said ATC HAS tightened
    their standards and my lack of a WAAS position and Class A transponder was kicking me off. What!s the cheapest way to get that traffic back. Really improves safety.

    steve

  6. #6
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    Default Re: New Carbon Cub - ADS-B Out Options?

    Steve

    I called Matt and he really understands the ADS-B requirements. Now after discussing with him, I know there is a way to get compliant ADS-B In/Out with a World VFR panel.

    Jon

    Quote Originally Posted by b757dad View Post
    I purchased a GDL 39D and put it my Carbon Cub. I played with the setup on my TT21 working with 796
    and "tricked" into receiving both TIS A and TIS B traffic. It was great! In January I stopped being able to
    Receive TIS B traffic. Thought my GDL Was the problem. Talked to Trig in Scotland and they said ATC HAS tightened
    their standards and my lack of a WAAS position and Class A transponder was kicking me off. What!s the cheapest way to get that traffic back. Really improves safety.

    steve

  7. #7
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    Default Re: New Carbon Cub - ADS-B Out Options?

    [QUOTE=b757dad;15308]I purchased a GDL 39D and put it my Carbon Cub. I played with the setup on my TT21 working with 796
    and "tricked" into receiving both TIS A and TIS B traffic. It was great! In January I stopped being able to
    Receive TIS B traffic. Thought my GDL Was the problem. Talked to Trig in Scotland and they said ATC HAS tightened
    their standards and my lack of a WAAS position and Class A transponder was kicking me off. What!s the cheapest way to get that traffic back. Really improves safety.

    steve

    Makes the GDL much less useful. The AHARS would be scary in a cloud. The weather limited with no Satellite WX.
    TRIG22 with their WAAS position at least $4000 upgrade to just get traffic.

  8. #8
    Member Dickey's Avatar
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    Default New Carbon Cub - ADS-B Out Options?

    Steve,

    ATC discover that folks were "waking up" the ground stations with their extended squatter transponders but were not participating because they didn't have a compliant GPS that was giving their position. So they have started to change the ground stations to not rebroadcast (ADS-R) to non-compliant systems.

    So with ADS-B In and non-compliant Out, you may see ship to ship targets or you may see targets from someone else's ADS-R that is customized for them (piggybacking). You WILL always receive WX from the ground stations because those are continuously broadcast.

    Just to clarify, there IS a path to compliance with the Trig transponders in the World panel. You must be producing at least a 125 watt signal, and you need a compliant position source, and an airspeed switch.


    -Matt Dickey-
    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Dickey; 03-20-2016 at 12:46 PM.
    Matt Dickey
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: New Carbon Cub - ADS-B Out Options? TT 21 796 installed currently

    The FAA sent a notice to have the avionics shop look at my equipment since it wasn't in compliance with their metrics.
    I am now searching for a way to get ADS -B compliant in my CC-160 with a TT 21 transponder. Using TRIG I would need a new Transponder the TT 22 and the TN 70 unless their is some way to convert the TT 21 to a TT 22 with 250 watts. How does the skyBeacon work and does it require the TT 21 to be changed?

    Thanks,

    B757dad- Steve

    ATC discover that folks were "waking up" the ground stations with their extended squatter transponders but were not participating because they didn't have a compliant GPS that was giving their position. So they have started to change the ground stations to not rebroadcast (ADS-R) to non-compliant systems.

    So with ADS-B In and non-compliant Out, you may see ship to ship targets or you may see targets from someone else's ADS-R that is customized for them (piggybacking). You WILL always receive WX from the ground stations because those are continuously broadcast.

    Just to clarify, there IS a path to compliance with the Trig transponders in the World panel. You must be producing at least a 125 watt signal, and you need a compliant position source, and an airspeed switch.


    -Matt Dickey-
    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

  10. #10
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    Default Re: New Carbon Cub - ADS-B Out Options?

    Just to clarify things, there really are two separate and distinct things to be aware of here and I'm not going to promote one particular brand over another but simply try and give an overview to this.

    For ADSB in, you need a receiver that can pick up the out signals from other aircraft air to air and from ground stations when they are involved, most people are more concerned with the air to air targets. You also need a way to display that info on a screen of some sort, be it an I pad or a portable gps or a panel mounted device. In is relatively easy and far less stringent as long as you have compatible devices.

    For ADSB out, you MUST have a GPS receiver that meets the necessary standards - usually WAAS is sufficient - for your position accuracy and you must have a transponder that has a high enough wattage level in its transmitted signal.

    There are devices, the Trig TN70, the Garmin GPS20A, that will accomplish the position part of this and I have heard that trig now switches from ground to airborne mode without a squat switch via software - it determines your speed and makes the decision - similar to Garmin. We havent done many of these as the majority of our fleet is using the Garmin GTX 345R. For a case where the transmitted power isnt high enough, I doubt that there is a patch for that other than replacing the transponder.

    Bottom line - due diligence. Most of the hardware will have enough documentation to tell you what it is compatible with, if it meets the ADSB out position accuracy and wattage requirements etc.

    Thanks much

    Mike Sutton
    Cubcrafters Avionics

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