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Thread: Engine management

  1. #11
    Member DRL's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engine management

    Quote Originally Posted by seastar View Post
    Thanks Jon for posting the procedure.
    I wish you had told me about this when we were discussing the cylinder failure on the phone.
    This break in procedure mostly agrees with the advice I received from Titan (ECI).
    To bad it was years too late to help me prevent severe damage to my engine.
    My learning curve on this airplane has been very very steep with little help from the factory.
    I have about 10 hours on the new cylinders and hope they stand up better than the originals.
    In case you can't tell, I am very upset over this whole cylinder failure issue.
    I have been very patient with the miriad airframe failures on this aircraft but this engine problem has really gotten to me.
    Bill
    By the way I got some RPM vs % power from Lycoming that should work for the 340.
    Sorry to hear you had problems with the cylinders on your CC340. Your note sounds like it was related to the break-in. It would be helpful if you could give us a little more information so that others can avoid your misfortune. Was the damage that resulted in all cylinders being removed related to glazing, low compression, high oil consumption or some other event such as high operating temperatures etc.?

    There is a lot of conflicting information regarding break-ins, both airplanes and autos. The Porsche forums say drive it like you stole it, on the other hand, there are those who say, just don't abuse it. We ran our CC340 at fairly high power, above 2300 RPM, for the first 10 hours. There was a significant drop in temperatures at about 6 hours. After that, we just flew it normally. We now have about 100 engine hours; it doesn't use much oil, probably a quart between changes. We have used this process over the years for about a half dozen engines, it seems to work.

    I have not heard anything about operating at idle. Although, it is a good idea to let the engine cool somewhat from high power settings prior to idle. One recommendation, which may or may not be true, is not operating at an RPM where the engine is neither producing power or driven by airflow. That seems to be something important with the larger engines, it may not apply here. It may cause the ring flutter that was mentioned. Bush at Savvy is the guru. He has some great information.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Engine management

    OK I was not going to post my engine troubles here because this is a CubCrafters forum and the problems are not all theirs.
    They are lax, in my opinion, for not providing all the necessary break in information to owners.

    Here's the bare bones of the failure.
    last spring I took my CC SN124 (I think) in for an annual condition inspection with 220 hours TT.
    The shop I use is excellent and we also use them to maintain our Citationjet. (Indy Jet at Indianapolis Regional airport.)
    The shop found one cylinder with very low compression.
    It was removed after borscoping and we found that the second ring was badly damaged as was the piston groove and the cylinder wall was scored.
    We also found scored valve rockers and plating peeling on the rocker pin.
    There were also areas of rust that looked like fingerprints on the push rods.
    Because some of the damage was on the valve rockers we removed all of the covers and found additional trouble.
    The other cylinders also were removed and showed similar distress in one or more rings.
    Long story short, Jon at CubCrafters convinced ECI to give me all new cylinder assemblies.
    My shop removed and installed the new cylinders on my nickle.
    I now have about 10 hours on the new cylinders.
    Note that my engine was assembled by a third party, not ECI or CubCrafters as were all the early engines.
    Now I have an airplane that I am told is worth a lot less because we had to "overhaul" the engine at 220 hours.

    What caused the problems???
    My shop says probably ring flutter.
    ECI said it could have been caused by ring flutter or incorrect break in or both.
    ( I think it was broken in correctly.)
    It could have been assembled incorrectly.

    Here is my advice for whatever it's worth.
    1. Pay absolutely no attention to the LSA 80 HP limit for the first 50 hours or until the oil consumption stabilizes.
    Run the hell out of the engine 2350-2450 RPM all the time for the first 50 or so.

    2. 425 -450 dF is ok for cylinder head temperature.

    3. Use Phillips XC oil only.

    4. Use Camgard after 50 hours.

    5. Stop pulling the power all the way back in flight. I know----that's hard to remember and to do and some say it's an old wives tale.
    ECI says it's real - by the way so does Lycoming.

    5. Add an oil filter if you don't have one. My airplane was delivered without one and was operated for the first 20 hours or so that way.
    I then bought an oil filter and added it to the engine.
    Questions?
    Bill
    Last edited by seastar; 10-23-2015 at 02:35 PM.

  3. #13
    Senior Member kiwibob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engine management

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Delamarter View Post
    Cub Crafters publishes a "CC340 Break-In Procedure", attached here. We started distributing this with each new airplane this past spring. It combines pertinent data from ECi's document with additional useful information.
    Most interesting and I wish I had had this information from new although I rather suspect it would not have been very helpful. My first 100+ hours were devoted to trying to master the winged devil at all (including a whoopsie at 9 hours necessitating a rebuild).

    Running at high power settings, leads to high speed/high rates of climb and was far from my mind. I also note that 2450RPM is full noise on mine so if that's only 75% I've been missing out, it must be terrifying!

    The engine (and I) are now at 330 hours and luckily the oil analyses over the past year show nothing amiss. No thanks to my engine break in procedure.

    I never (hardly ever) go to idle in the air as I find descents and landings with a touch of power (1200-1400rpm) go a great deal smoother - less bounce, more control - as the craft has so little inertia that cutting the power before touching the ground makes it drop like a stone.

    I certainly sympathise with the problems Seastar has had as mine has been in the shop far too often with the various SB's and an extraneous oil leak earlier this year. That said I've had excellent assistance from Cub Crafters when required. I keep hoping that I'll get a year without some form of extra maintenance!
    Bob Gray, FX-3 #38, ZK-FXC

  4. #14
    Member DRL's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engine management

    Quote Originally Posted by seastar View Post
    Here is my advice for whatever it's worth.
    1. Pay absolutely no attention to the LSA 80 HP limit for the first 50 hours or until the oil consumption stabilizes.
    Run the hell out of the engine 2350-2450 RPM all the time for the first 50 or so.

    2. 425 -450 dF is ok for cylinder head temperature.

    3. Use Phillips XC oil only.

    4. Use Camgard after 50 hours.

    5. Stop pulling the power all the way back in flight. I know----that's hard to remember and to do and some say it's an old wives tale.
    ECI says it's real - by the way so does Lycoming.

    5. Add an oil filter if you don't have one. My airplane was delivered without one and was operated for the first 20 hours or so that way.
    I then bought an oil filter and added it to the engine.
    Questions?
    Bill
    Thanks Bill, it seems you may have been a bit unlucky. Somewhere in the process something went wrong, maybe it was run-in improperly in the shop, by the third party. After the build, but before it was sent to Cubcrafters. It is hard to know just what happened, these engines have been around a very long time. Usually the only problem with an improper break-in is glazing the cylinders, which has to be manually removed, but that is unlikely to cause the damage you experienced.

    Your break-in procedure should work fine and the external oil filter is a great idea. Oil analysis is also ok, but after the engine is broken-in and done making metal, probably the second oil change. The new boroscopes are so cheap, it makes sense to look inside the cylinders when the plugs are replaced.

    We have EX #16 with a Skyview system, we monitor each cylinder as if it is it's own engine and send the data to Savvy. When you have one engine, it is a good idea to pay attention to it. There is an old saying; the only thing better than two engines is four.

    I would not worry about the airplane being devalued, they seem to hold their price very well, one takeoff will sell it.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Engine management

    "The engine (and I) are now at 330 hours and luckily the oil analyses over the past year show nothing amiss. No thanks to my engine break in procedure."

    Don't count on on oil analysis. All of mine including the one we did when we found the bad cylinders came back clean.

    And DRL, I guess you haven't tried to sell a 220 hour airplane with overhauled cylinders.
    Must be different here in Indiana.
    Bill
    Last edited by seastar; 10-24-2015 at 07:07 AM.

  6. #16
    Senior Member turbopilot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engine management

    I have been following this thread. There are so many theories about why aircraft engines prematurely go bad.

    Here is what I have learned over the years. No scientific basis for these rules, just lots of experience.

    1. Modern aircraft engines typically "break in" very fast, often on the first flight.
    2. Once the engine has been confirmed not to be using oil (typically in the first 10 hours), get the mineral oil out as soon as you can. Never let an new engine sit idle with mineral oil for any extended period of time (more than a week or so).
    3. Operate the engines as cool as possible (not possible with CC's before the new cowl system in 2013).
    4. Engines that operate frequently (at least one flight every week) will provide a significantly longer life to overhaul.
    Bob Anderson, CC11-00435, N94RA

  7. #17
    Senior Member Cubrath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engine management

    "And DRL, I guess you haven't tried to sell a 220 hour airplane with overhauled cylinders.
    Must be different here in Indiana.
    Bill
    [/QUOTE]

    Why do you think that is the only thing pulling the value down is the engine and by how much? If an airplane is properly repaired it wouldn't bother me a bit to buy it with a low time top overhaul.

    I think all the older CC's have taken a slight price hit in the last year. IMO it's due to the fact that everyone wants the G3X now and the fact that the new EX2 and factory assist build with the latest and greatest is out. As long as Cubcrafters is innovating the price of the older airplanes will continue to drop.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Engine management

    Quote Originally Posted by seastar View Post
    OK I was not going to post my engine troubles here because this is a CubCrafters forum and the problems are not all theirs.
    They are lax, in my opinion, for not providing all the necessary break in information to owners.

    Here's the bare bones of the failure.
    last spring I took my CC SN124 (I think) in for an annual condition inspection with 220 hours TT.
    The shop I use is excellent and we also use them to maintain our Citationjet. (Indy Jet at Indianapolis Regional airport.)
    The shop found one cylinder with very low compression.
    It was removed after borscoping and we found that the second ring was badly damaged as was the piston groove and the cylinder wall was scored.
    We also found scored valve rockers and plating peeling on the rocker pin.
    There were also areas of rust that looked like fingerprints on the push rods.
    Because some of the damage was on the valve rockers we removed all of the covers and found additional trouble.
    The other cylinders also were removed and showed similar distress in one or more rings.
    Long story short, Jon at CubCrafters convinced ECI to give me all new cylinder assemblies.
    My shop removed and installed the new cylinders on my nickle.
    I now have about 10 hours on the new cylinders.
    Note that my engine was assembled by a third party, not ECI or CubCrafters as were all the early engines.
    Now I have an airplane that I am told is worth a lot less because we had to "overhaul" the engine at 220 hours.

    What caused the problems???
    My shop says probably ring flutter.
    ECI said it could have been caused by ring flutter or incorrect break in or both.
    ( I think it was broken in correctly.)
    It could have been assembled incorrectly.

    Here is my advice for whatever it's worth.
    1. Pay absolutely no attention to the LSA 80 HP limit for the first 50 hours or until the oil consumption stabilizes.
    Run the hell out of the engine 2350-2450 RPM all the time for the first 50 or so.

    2. 425 -450 dF is ok for cylinder head temperature.

    3. Use Phillips XC oil only.

    4. Use Camgard after 50 hours.

    5. Stop pulling the power all the way back in flight. I know----that's hard to remember and to do and some say it's an old wives tale.
    ECI says it's real - by the way so does Lycoming.

    5. Add an oil filter if you don't have one. My airplane was delivered without one and was operated for the first 20 hours or so that way.
    I then bought an oil filter and added it to the engine.
    Questions?
    Bill
    I am very curious about this ring flutter apparently caused by pulling the power and having the prop drive the engine,I wonder why it doesn't happen in your car when the cars motion drives the engine when you take your foot of the throttle say at 60 mph.
    Bruce

  9. #19
    Senior Member kiwibob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engine management

    Quote Originally Posted by seastar View Post
    Don't count on on oil analysis. All of mine including the one we did when we found the bad cylinders came back clean.
    That is disturbing. You'd have hoped that the filter or the oil analysis would have picked up the debris from the rings/cylinder walls etc. Could it have happened before you put the filter on? Obviously no way to tell now.
    Bob Gray, FX-3 #38, ZK-FXC

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Engine management

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
    I am very curious about this ring flutter apparently caused by pulling the power and having the prop drive the engine,I wonder why it doesn't happen in your car when the cars motion drives the engine when you take your foot of the throttle say at 60 mph.
    Bruce
    It's probably more related to quick cooling. Your car has water around the cylinders keeping temp constant. I was taught from my first flying lesson not to pull back the throttle rapidly. So far I've only overhauled my engines once. I have always bought airplanes with runout engines & overhauled them. The only time I didn't was a Comanche with a 500 hr engine. It came apart 30 days after I bought it. Kit #140 will be my first new engine.

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