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Thread: Ads b question

  1. #1
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    Default Ads b question

    I have an ADS-B question.
    has anyone here equipped their Carbon Cub with ADS-B equipment?
    If so what kind of experience have you had?
    What equipment, how much did it cost, ease of installation, how does it work and any other comments.
    I am sure that others can benefit from your efforts.
    Bill

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    Bill

    I haven't yet. I have the executive glass panel with D-180 and GDU-375 but also use Stratus2 with Forelight on an iPad. I went to Oshkosh looking for a reasonable ADS-B out solution to my current setup. The most interesting option I saw was Appareo (maker of the Stratus) coming out with a transponder that will include WAAS GPS and ADS-B out to meet the 2020 requirements. Seemed to think it will fit the dimensions of current Garmin 327 transponder. Due out next year.

    http://www.appareo.com/aviation/stratus-esg/

    Jon

    Quote Originally Posted by seastar View Post
    I have an ADS-B question.
    has anyone here equipped their Carbon Cub with ADS-B equipment?
    If so what kind of experience have you had?
    What equipment, how much did it cost, ease of installation, how does it work and any other comments.
    I am sure that others can benefit from your efforts.
    Bill

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    I have had adsb in and out for over a yr. however I did not go the standard panel. As am experimental went with advanced flight system 5600, free flight adsb integrated with 5600, trig transp mode s and adsb out. Because I wanted basic ifr capability I also installed a 430w which does satisfy the gps source for the adsb making it 2020 compliant. You can satisfy the GPS source with a number of cheaper options now. Additional cost for adsb was approx 1000. Once you fly with adsb traffic you'll never want to fly without it.

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    Default Re: Ads b question

    Some are claiming that for experimental aircraft like mine that it is not necessary to have TSOed equipment as long as it "meets the standards".
    I wonder if the GPS in the executive panel "meets the standard".
    Garmin will not comment. They want to sell you a $7000 package for compliance.
    I have a 330 transponder and think it can be modified for ES.
    that would provide "out" if the GPS is ok.
    Then I want "in" some how.
    I should have designed a low cost solution. Too late now.
    What is the factory going to provide?
    Bill

  5. #5
    Senior Member turbopilot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    Bill, I have a Dynon Skyview Touch with full ADS-B out capability for the last year. Love the system so far. Dynon announced a full 2020 compliant drop in GPS replacement at AirVenture, due to ship anytime. With that GPS my system will be fully 2020 compliant. My Skyview Touch is 2020 functional right now but not "2020 legal" without new GPS.

    Total cost for all the Dynon equipment including Com and autopilot was about $14,000. Installation extra. New GPS is around $600 IIRC.

    Just finished a 1,000 mile trip in the CC. Traffic, weather, transponder all worked great. Only downside is that the ADS-B leaves public bread crumbs. My trips can be discovered and documented on certain web sites without me ever talking to ATC. Position, altitude, course and airspeed is recorded anytime ADS-B is in range.
    Bob Anderson, CC11-00316, N382RA

  6. #6
    Member Dickey's Avatar
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    Default Ads b question

    Quote Originally Posted by seastar View Post
    Some are claiming that for experimental aircraft like mine that it is not necessary to have TSOed equipment as long as it "meets the standards".
    I wonder if the GPS in the executive panel "meets the standard".
    Garmin will not comment. They want to sell you a $7000 package for compliance.
    I have a 330 transponder and think it can be modified for ES.
    that would provide "out" if the GPS is ok.
    Then I want "in" some how.
    I should have designed a low cost solution. Too late now.
    What is the factory going to provide?
    Bill
    Bill,
    I will make an attempt to answer your question but forgive me if it gets to technical. Sometimes there is just no way around some of this and still communicate the necessary info.

    For non-certified aircraft, i.e. LSA and Experimental, the rules state that the equipment does NOT have to be TSO'd but it must "meet the requirements of the TSO". Reference FAR 91.225 and pay attention to verbiage that says "meets the requirements of.....".
    Note that if you owned a certified aircraft, there are rules elsewhere that require the equipment in your aircraft to be TSO certified.
    So, for your experimental aircraft to meet the requirements of the ADS-B Out mandate, you will need:
    1. A GPS that meets the requirements of the TSO.
    Handhelds and devices that are not permanently mounted do not meet this requirement. Also be careful when you hear the term WAAS GPS! Just because it is a WAAS GPS doesn't mean that it meets the requirements listed in the TSO's or FAR's. I typically use the term "compliant position source".
    2. An ES transponder (Extended Squitter), or a Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) that meets the requirements of the TSO.
    The UAT operates on a frequency slightly lower than a transponder and was established for GA aircraft flying IN THE US ONLY. No other countries recognize the 978 MHz UAT. This is important for folks that plan to fly their aircraft internationally. Also no UAT's in Class A.

    Our Executive Glass Touch does NOT currently meet the ADS-B Out mandate but, there is good news.
    The Transponder we are using is Extended Squitter so the system is halfway there.
    Also, Garmin has started shipping their "Compliant" GPS solution which is an additional box they call the "GPS 20A".
    Until now, Garmin had no cost effective solution accept their panel mounted TSO'd GPS's. That's why the cost from them was so high.

    As far as your GTX 330......
    Yes. Garmin will take your 330 and upgrade it to a 330ES for about $1000. You will need to ship it to them for this upgrade. You may want to wait till your next transponder cert is due to have this done.

    As far as ASD-B In......
    We are installing the GDL39 series receivers. If "In" is requested, the Exec Glass panel gets the remote version GDL39 which displays traffic and WX on the G3X, and the World VFR gets the standard version which connects to the Aera 796 via Bluetooth and also displays traffic and WX. These will also Bluetooth to your iPad or tablet running the Garmin Pilot app.

    I hope that answers your questions (and a few other folks' out there) without causing your eyes to roll back.
    Last edited by Dickey; 02-11-2016 at 10:20 PM.
    Matt Dickey
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  7. #7
    Senior Member ceslaw's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    Dickey:

    Excellent synopsis.

    Coincidentally I called Aircraft Spruce yesterday to see if the GPS 20A was available since it was not listed on their web site. I was told that it will ship in a couple of weeks. Price is around $845, but will also need the antenna and 'connection kit.' I suspect total price will be in the $1200 range.

    Details regarding this unit can be found in the G3X manual which can be down loaded.

    I am currently wiring my cub with the G3X and plan to add this unit so it will be ADSB out compliant.

    Chuck

  8. #8
    Senior Member Jon Delamarter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    Matt, it might be helpful if you'd comment on the limitations of having ADS-B in if you're not equipped for ADS-B out, i.e. the "bootleg hockey puck".

  9. #9
    Member Dickey's Avatar
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    Default Ads b question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Delamarter View Post
    Matt, it might be helpful if you'd comment on the limitations of having ADS-B in if you're not equipped for ADS-B out, i.e. the "bootleg hockey puck".
    Jon,
    The term "Hockey Puck" is used to describe the custom packet of information that the ground station sends up to the aircraft but only after the ground station has been "pinged" by the aircraft's ADS-B "Out" transmission.
    Once the ground station receives your "Out" information which includes ID, position, etc., it then creates a packet of information which it sends back up to your aircraft. This packet is customized for you for your specific time and position. It is a compilation of all the other recognized traffic within your parameter and for a specific altitude above and below your aircraft. Picture your aircraft in the center of a Hockey Puck. This all happens once every second. So you send your report once a second and the receiving ground station then broadcasts a traffic report, customized for you.

    Now, as far as the "bootleg" term is concerned, that is what happens when you are trying to receive the benefits of ADS-B "In" without having the equipment for ADS-B "Out". The issue is that this report you're getting is not customized for your position - it's the other guy's report that you are receiving because you are located within his "hockey puck". Because you don't have a personalized hockey puck, you are "piggy backing off of the other guy's signal that was meant for him. Because of this, it is possible that you are not getting a complete picture of your personal area.

    Sporty's had a webinar ADS-B webinar that I found to be helpful and Garmin also has their ADS-B Academy.
    Last edited by Dickey; 02-11-2016 at 10:24 PM.
    Matt Dickey
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    I would just clarify that you may not be in the other hockey puck. It may be 10, 20, or 30 thousand feet above you (assuming you are in a cub). You are within the reception range of their transmitted packet.


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