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Thread: Ads b question

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    Could someone confirm that new airplanes being delivered currently with the non 2020 conforming extended squitter transponder (G3X) will receive the same traffic benefits as those with a certified position source such as the Garmin 20A? I am getting my airplane in November so the software should be current on the avionics.

    Thanks,

    Jimmy Elza

  2. #12
    Member Dickey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyelza View Post
    Could someone confirm that new airplanes being delivered currently with the non 2020 conforming extended squitter transponder (G3X) will receive the same traffic benefits as those with a certified position source such as the Garmin 20A? I am getting my airplane in November so the software should be current on the avionics.

    Thanks,

    Jimmy Elza
    Jimmy,

    In your case, your aircraft's traffic system will perform as if it were compliant but will not meet the requirements with regard to the position source. The ground stations will see you, recognize you, and send you traffic info, just as if you were a compliant system......but they will also know that you are not compliant. It won't be an issue for you until your first flight after Jan 1, 2020 when the FAA's system notifies them that you, the owner of NXXXX, are not compliant with the requirements and may send you a notice to get compliant.

    For you, your extended squitter transponder meets the requirements, it's the GPS in the G3X display that does not. You will need the GPS 20A for a position source to meet the 2020 regs and that is an issue of hardware, not software.

    Matt

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    So it looks as though all I need to do to make my legacy G3X/330 transponder "out" legal is to have the transponder updated to ES for about $1000 and then buy a compliant GPS For about $1000.
    then I can add a stratus for another $1000 and will be good to go for "in".
    A three grand solution. Not too bad as airplanes go.
    I still wonder if the legacy I GPS would "meet the standard"?
    Bill

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    Thanks for the reply. The thing that had me confused is I have a friend with the same exact panel although an earlier version. He bought some type of non certified accessory in order to "squitt" so he could see traffic on the G3X. It is my understanding that there is some type of software update that he needs in order for his factory transponder to squitt. Clear as mud, I know.

    Thanks,

    Jimmy Elza

  5. #15
    Senior Member ceslaw's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    Jimmy,

    In your case, your aircraft's traffic system will perform as if it were compliant but will not meet the requirements with regard to the position source. The ground stations will see you, recognize you, and send you traffic info, just as if you were a compliant system......but they will also know that you are not compliant. It won't be an issue for you until your first flight after Jan 1, 2020 when the FAA's system notifies them that you, the owner of NXXXX, are not compliant with the requirements and may send you a notice to get compliant.

    For you, your extended squitter transponder meets the requirements, it's the GPS in the G3X display that does not. You will need the GPS 20A for a position source to meet the 2020 regs and that is an issue of hardware, not software.

    Matt
    Follow up question: when the FAA figures out the system is not compliant on that first flight after January 1, 2020, will it only be an issue prompting a notice if you happen to venture into airspace where ADSB is required? In other words if you are flying only in, say class D and E airspace, will it trigger a notification?

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    Quote Originally Posted by ceslaw View Post
    Follow up question: when the FAA figures out the system is not compliant on that first flight after January 1, 2020, will it only be an issue prompting a notice if you happen to venture into airspace where ADSB is required? In other words if you are flying only in, say class D and E airspace, will it trigger a notification?
    Since "In" is not required, it won't be an issue as long as you are staying in airspace that does not require ADS-B "Out". If you are flying your aircraft in airspace that requires "Out" and you have a non-compliant system, I believe you will get a notification.

    What I don't know is what they plan to do about an aircraft that is avoiding the "Out" required airspace's, but has a functioning, non-compliant "Out" system. Will it matter to the FAA whether the system is compliant or not since the aircraft is staying away from airspace that requires ADS-B "Out"?

    I don't know that answer so I have sent an email to the ADS-B folks at the FAA. I will post the answer when I get a reply from them.

  7. #17
    Member Treetopflyer's Avatar
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    Default Ads b question

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    Since "In" is not required, it won't be an issue as long as you are staying in airspace that does not require ADS-B "Out". If you are flying your aircraft in airspace that requires "Out" and you have a non-compliant system, I believe you will get a notification.

    What I don't know is what they plan to do about an aircraft that is avoiding the "Out" required airspace's, but has a functioning, non-compliant "Out" system. Will it matter to the FAA whether the system is compliant or not since the aircraft is staying away from airspace that requires ADS-B "Out"?

    I don't know that answer so I have sent an email to the ADS-B folks at the FAA. I will post the answer when I get a reply from them.
    To me, the part that's confusing, is why they haven't required "all" aircraft that's flying to have ADS-B out....or at least something that can identify your position. I was under the impression that the entire reason for ADS-B was primarily to have the ability to direct traffic in a tighter more efficient manner and to eventually be able to decommission all of the ground based radar. I understand that it's more important to have ADS-B in higher traffic airspace but once the ground based radar is gone, how are they going to be able to see an aircraft that potentially don't even have a mode-C transponder? So in this situation, you could have an aircraft that's got all of the latest greatest equipment in the world and if another aircraft doesn't have any positioning equipment at all and there's not even any ground based radar available that can at least pick up that aircraft and identify its approximate location that ATC could warn you about or that your ADS-B "in" equipped aircraft could pick up on, how would you ever know if that other aircraft is a potential threat? I think the system is still too fragmented. So, if safety is of primary concern (as it should be) I think we should all have some type of position identifying equipment on board, even if it's something that's very rudimentary in nature.


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    Last edited by Treetopflyer; 10-12-2015 at 07:07 PM.

  8. #18
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    Default Ads b question

    Quote Originally Posted by Treetopflyer View Post
    To me, the part that's confusing, is why they haven't required "all" aircraft that's flying to have ADS-B out....or at least something that can identify your position. I was under the impression that the entire reason for ADS-B was primarily to have the ability to direct traffic in a tighter more efficient manner and to eventually be able to decommission all of the ground based radar....
    A couple things....
    1. They do not plan to get rid of ALL the ground based radar sites. I've been told by folks working in the program that they plan to reduce the system by about 2/3. They are going to keep some sites active as back-up in case something were to wipe out the satellite based system.
    2. If you look at the requirements for when you have to have a transponder, ADS-B runs pretty much parallel with those requirements. So why haven't all aircraft been required to have transponders? My conclusion is this: When I think of aircraft like ultralights, ag planes, balloons, and folks that never get more than 50 miles from their remote location, it's just not practical to require every aircraft to equip.

    When discussing this topic with pilots and owners, I've had to tell folks "Don't shoot me! I'm just the messenger." If they made everyone equip, I know I'd have a lot more targets on my back. ;-)

    Matt
    Last edited by Dickey; 02-11-2016 at 10:31 PM.
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  9. #19
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    Quote Originally Posted by seastar View Post
    I still wonder if the legacy I GPS would "meet the standard"?
    Bill
    I might be able to answer this one but I am unfamiliar with the term "legacy I" GPS. What make and model are you referring to?

    Matt

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Ads b question

    Quote Originally Posted by ceslaw View Post
    Follow up question: when the FAA figures out the system is not compliant on that first flight after January 1, 2020, will it only be an issue prompting a notice if you happen to venture into airspace where ADSB is required? In other words if you are flying only in, say class D and E airspace, will it trigger a notification?
    I asked this question in an email to the FAA and this is their response:

    "The policy for non-compliant avionics after the mandate will likely remain as it is today i.e., SIL and SDA set to zero regardless of the airspace it's operated in. Owners of these aircraft could still request an ATC deviation authorization per 91.225 to operate in rule compliant airspace after the mandate. As long as these conditions are met, AFS would not contact an owner of a non-compliant aircraft."

    SIL is Source Integrity Level
    SDA is System Design Assurance

    Both of these are pieces of the info that is sent on an ADS-B "Out" broadcast by your aircraft and they tell that ground system whether the system is compliant or not.

    From the response I got, it sounds like currently they don't plan to contact anyone for not having a compliant system as long as they are not flying in the mandated airspaces. They are also saying that you can still get clearance into ADS-B airspace if you follow the regs in 91.225 (g).

    Matt

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