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Thread: Garmin Synthetic Vision in the Carbon Cub?

  1. #21
    Senior Member ceslaw's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garmin Synthetic Vision in the Carbon Cub?

    I am most interested in this topic. If one is going to spend big bucks for a panel it would be nice to know it can be upgraded to be ADS compatible when that requirement creeps up on us in six years.

    The Trigg TT21 comes with the World VFR panel, but some info suggests the TT22 will be needed to be ADSB out compliant. That issue will have to be resolved.

    The Trigg TT21 or TT22 will require a WAAS compliant source of GPS input to function as ADSB Out. A couple of units, including the Freeflight, were approved in 2010 according to Trigg's manual. Hopefully others will work now.

    Presumably a separate compliant GPS WAAS source could be simply added at a later date and simply plugged into the Trigg to make it ADSB Out legal. But having two separate GPS receivers seems redundant. One that could feed both the Trigg and the 796 would seem a more elegant solution.

    What about the Garmin GDL-39, which is a WAAS GPS source and ADSB in source for the Garmin 796 (among others)? I suspect it would produce a 'degraded' ADSB out signal on the Trigg 21 / 22 (meaning slight loss of altitude accuracy).

    So here is what I am wondering. If one starts with the World VFR panel, adds a Garmin GDL-39, connects it to the Trigg 21 and the 796, would you have not only ADSB in on the 796 but also legally sufficient ADSB Out on the Trigg 21 / 22? My guess is not. I question whether the Garmin GDL-39 has RAIM capability, yet another question I can't answer.

    Info from another site:
    www.sea-avionics.com

    Q: Do the Trig transponders offer Extended Squitter ADS-B out?
    A: As of 2010, the TT22 & TT31 transponders include support for Extended Squitter (ES) ADS-B Out. The software in the Trig transponders for the ES ADS-B Out provides all of the required parameters listed in EASA AMC20-24. AMC20-24 is ADS-B airworthiness approval for EASA. This "Acceptable Means of Compliance" spells out the performance requirements of such equipment.
    In order to utilize the ADS functions of the Trig transponders, a GPS receiver meeting specific criteria must be interfaced with the transponder. As of 2010, the Freeflight 1201 & NexNav 3101 are the only GPS receivers that can be used with the Trig transponders for this function.



    Q: Can the Trig transponders receive NMEA GPS data from any GPS receiver?
    A: Yes, you can connect any NMEA GPS position source to a Trig transponder, and with the correct configuration the transponder will broadcast ADS-B position squitters. However there are limitations with the NMEA data. The NMEA messages do not include Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring (RAIM) information, which means that the position transmitted by the Trig transponder will be indentified as "low quality" on most traffic information systems. Please note that this type of NMEA GPS/transponder configuration will not meet forthcoming FAA ADS-B requirements, but in the end it will be rather beneficial for use in flight tracking and traffic avoidance.
    Last edited by ceslaw; 02-28-2014 at 08:35 PM.

  2. #22
    Senior Member turbopilot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garmin Synthetic Vision in the Carbon Cub?

    Quote Originally Posted by ceslaw View Post

    What about the Garmin GDL-39, which is a WAAS GPS source and ADSB in source for the Garmin 796 (among others)? I suspect it would produce a 'degraded' ADSB out signal on the Trigg 21 / 22 (meaning slight loss of altitude accuracy).
    I have a GDL-39 in my Carbon Cub that outputs data into the GDU375 via a serial lead and to the iPad via BlueTooth. GDL-39 has two bidirectional serial lines. One serial out lead supplies ADS-B weather to the GDU375 via one of the standard serial protocols (don't recall which one). The GDL-39 has a WAAS GPS but I have no idea why, since it outputs data to devices that also have GPS. There is no dedicated GPS out lead from the GDL-39. Just like the GPS796 there is no indication in the GDL-39 documentation about the level of certification of the integral GPS.

    This whole ADS-B/TIS issue sure seems to be overly complicated. All the pieces seem to exist but no one is putting it together in a package suitable for an LSA.
    Last edited by turbopilot; 03-01-2014 at 07:50 AM.
    Bob Anderson, CC11-00316, N382RA

  3. #23
    Senior Member ceslaw's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garmin Synthetic Vision in the Carbon Cub?

    I have just about come to the following conclusions

    1. Go with a transponder like the Trigg that has the capability of being ADSB out compatible
    2. Defer a WAAS GPS compliant input source for now with the expectation that something will emerge in the next six years.
    3. Since ADSB out will be required only in Class A, B, C, and E at 10,000 feet or above, areas not typically on my agenda, just relax and wait to see what develops.

    Chuck
    Last edited by ceslaw; 03-01-2014 at 06:33 AM.

  4. #24
    Senior Member turbopilot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garmin Synthetic Vision in the Carbon Cub?

    Quote Originally Posted by ceslaw View Post
    I have just about come to the following conclusions

    1. Go with a transponder like the Trigg that has the capability of being ADSB out compatible
    2. Defer a WAAS GPS compliant input source for now with the expectation that something will emerge in the next six years.
    3. Since ADSB out will be required only in Class A, B, C, and E at 10,000 feet or above, areas not typically on my agenda, just relax and wait to see what develops.

    Chuck
    Good option to "further proof" the Carbon Cub for the ADS-B issue. The more I read about the Trig Com and Transponder it is clear these may be the best avionics choice for the Carbon Cub. Very small 2 1/4" control heads associated with small remote processor box.
    Bob Anderson, CC11-00316, N382RA

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Garmin Synthetic Vision in the Carbon Cub?

    My understanding is that a 796 puts out the necessary data stream for ADS-B out. Until 2020 (unless the FAA delays implementation), it, when paired with a mode S extended squitter transponder, will tickle the ground stations so that they'll transmit traffic data back. An ADS-B in reciever would still be needed, such as the GDL-39.

    I believe the GDL-39 has a gps to provide better position info for folks running Garmin Pilot on iPads or Andriod devices.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Garmin Synthetic Vision in the Carbon Cub?

    There are two topics here about advanced avionics and whether we need or want the capability.
    • ADS-B out
    • Synthetic Vision

    About ADS-B out, I operate in some very high traffic density areas and want all the help I can get keeping track of traffic. I usually talk to approach for flight following, but would also like good graphic data on a MFD. I have the executive panel with the GDU 375 and get simple ADS traffic. I've looked into ADS-B out and have not found a reasonable solution for the CC. And I DON'T know whether ADS-B out provides significantly better traffic. So I'm interested in both things, how to get ADS-B out, and does it have value for better traffic awareness.

    About synthetic vision. The highest value to me seems to be for night VFR, especially night VFR in mountainous regions. But we don't fly at night with the CC. Another use is for added IFR awareness, again especially around mountains. But the same thing, we don't fly IFR with the CC. The area where it could be useful is when pushing the visibility, under an overcast, in mountainous terrain - there are times when you are still legal, but not necessarily comfortable and you could use some help. The danger of course it that you could push this to a not-legal scud-running situation. But there are plenty of legal low visibility times here in California. I use the terrain display on the GDU 375 quite a bit and it is very helpful. Synthetic vision might be better, or a combined synthetic vision:terrain display.

    Another case is under a very low overcast but with very good visibility like they have much of the time in Alaska. I've flown there (in a fast airplane, not a CC) and a terrain display is invaluable - you don't want to fly around a corner and up a dead end canyon. But I don't see synthetic vision helping much in those conditions. However in California and low visibility coastal regions synthetic vision could be useful.
    Chuck Hull
    L70 Agua Dulce, CA

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Garmin Synthetic Vision in the Carbon Cub?

    With the Executive Glass panel you can place an iPad mini over the Dynon, sitting on top of the SL40, and Velcroed at the top so it can easily be taken off and on.

    photo.jpg

    The Garmin Pilot app also needs the GDL 39 3D for attitude information and ADS-B. I haven't flown with this, don't have the GDL 39, bit it is kind of tempting.
    Chuck Hull
    L70 Agua Dulce, CA

  8. #28
    Senior Member turbopilot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garmin Synthetic Vision in the Carbon Cub?

    Chuck we are just one simple BlueTooth interface away of putting the power of a full glass cockpit into a iPad Mini Retina or similar device. I have been taking a deep dive into the documentation for the Dynon Skyview system. At the heart of this system is the SV-ADAHRS-200 module. This module uses MEMS sensors to measure inertial, magnetic, and air data (pitot, static and AOA) all in one small $1,200 box.

    One side of the box has a serial connector which goes back to the Skyview panel. The SV-ADAHRS-200 sits remotely out in the wing.

    I am having CC316 prewired with the harness for the SV-ADAHRS-200 along with an AOA pitot tube.

    But all that is really needed is a BlueTooth interface at the end of the serial connection to the SV-ADAHRS-200 which could then send all of the inertial, magnetic and air data to an iPad to be used by program like Garmin Pilot.

    Unlikely we will see Garmin or Dynon come up with this interface since it will erode sales of the full glass cockpit, but somebody else is sure to do it any time now. It would be a perfect solution for a Carbon Cub at 10% of the cost of a full glass cockpit.






    Kickstarter anyone? Perfect project.
    Last edited by turbopilot; 03-18-2014 at 08:46 AM.
    Bob Anderson, CC11-00316, N382RA

  9. #29
    Senior Member ceslaw's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garmin Synthetic Vision in the Carbon Cub?

    Amazing how much is packed into that tiny package. Interesting concept.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Garmin Synthetic Vision in the Carbon Cub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    With the Executive Glass panel you can place an iPad mini over the Dynon, sitting on top of the SL40, and Velcroed at the top so it can easily be taken off and on.
    I did try the iPad mini with Garmin Pilot and the synthetic vision view today - around some canyons and hills to see if it would be useful.

    My conclusion is - not too useful. There are two issues. First, the iPad at full brightness is not up to what we expect with airplane panels. You can see it bright sunlight, but it doesn't jump out like it should. Second, the synthetic vision is not that helpful. I could judge the terrain much better looking out the windshield, and the iPad didn't add anything. The flight visibility was okay today, but even in low visibility I can't see this particular synthetic vision setup adding much. The terrain display (yellow, red) on the Garmin GDU 375 was much more helpful.
    Chuck Hull
    L70 Agua Dulce, CA

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