Advice on Landing method

[kiwibob]

I've done about 200hours in my CC and mainly use the power on/full flap/40kts (or less) type landings. I go to idle power either to flare or once the wheels are down for a wheel landing. This choice depends on the day and the strip.

The biggest issue for me initially (and now) is directional control in the roll. I "lost it" shortly after getting my rating on a steeply cambered gravel surface and when she goes she goes big time. I have yet to gain enough confidence to use differential - or indeed any - braking until the tail is down and the stick hard back.

Certainly dump the flap on touch down but only if you can do that and be certain of maintaining focus on directional control.

Quartering tail wind landings make me particularly nervous and I go out specifically to practice in thee conditions now.

[pwill435]

Interested in comments on flap settings for different conditions. IE when you have a heavy passenger in the back seat and/or aft load, cross wind etc. Paul.

[cityrancher]

Interested in comments on flap settings for different conditions. IE when you have a heavy passenger in the back seat and/or aft load, cross wind etc. Paul.

Strong crosswinds I always wheel land. If you have a bad landing you still have extra speed and the brakes for directional control. Heavy rear passenger, usually three point land as the tail is heavy anyway. Flaps 20 unless it is a short or spot landing. Full flaps on my aircraft require too much forward trim especially when rear heavy.

[glickle]

For whats it worth here is what I learned years ago from Jim Richmond and Ralph has it right . From what I have seen and heard most CC drivers are simply approaching and landing with too much air speed. You can actually land these planes without ever touching trim from cruise and still have the plane in neutral trim all the way down. The approach and landing airpseeds will tell you if you are going too fast based on the need to trim. I do not recall the exact airspeeds as you can feel it better than using airspeeds but if you try setting all three flap positions after you begin to slow and feel the need to trim, at the correct airspeeds adding flap will actually trim the plane neutral and touch downs usually are in the 30-35 indicated range. Depending on your angle of attack (there is some error in the pitot) often I see as low as 21 indicated (zero wind GPS is showing more like 30) just prior to touchdown. If you find you are, for example nose down and trimming heavily to get the plane to decend, I suggest you have too much airpseed and or power. Ralphs numbers of a safe 40-45 over the fence is same for me unless really going for short landings. Practice trying to approach and land without changing any trim using flap seetings for trim and I suggest your landings will become much more managable. Just my 2 cents. best Gary

[Fresno]

Thanks Forum.

Just finished 12 landings. Now I know it's true, life begins at 40 (mph). No directional issues now. Roll outs are controlled, slow and very short.

I think 35-38 mph will be the next goal.

[Springloaded]

I think Gary and Ralph are spot on. I really don't ever look at airspeed, I never trim, you can feel the plane as Gary said and I always 3 point. My normal landing Down wind 300' reduce power slow pull notch of flaps while turning base 2nd notch just before turning final power off land with 2 notches or add last notch on final and always pick a spot, if you miss that spot you have to take off and do it again.(it's fun to miss) I fly down the length of the runway at the lowest agl and at slowest speed all the time just for fun. Coming back from Kansas last month 2 landings gusting over 30 ,1 slight crosswind was 36 gusting to 42knts I landed w 2 notches. Landing was never the problem Taxing and finding a way to get out of the plane for fuel was.
My instructor always had the airspeed covered up in the cub when we went and if it was blownin 20 we went flying. If the door wasn't floating coming over the fence we were going to fast and your butt better be in the center or he would tell you about it. Avgas is cheaper than planes so practice. It has worked well for me but I'm a relatively new pilot, 6 years 1500hrs , 500hrs piper cubs, 450hr CC. just over 3000 cub landings and still learning every day. My 2 cents.
Chuck

[Tahoe Cub]

I establish a landing configuration with 50 degrees of flap and stabilized pattern speed of 42 mph on downwind before turning to base. This relieves me of any activity but flying the plane for proper pattern, airspeed and decent rate early in the approach. After turning final I start adjusting the speed down with power and pitch. I think reducing the variables early in the pattern improves control/safety.

42 mph is 1.3 Vso. This speed is the standard for pattern speed and is shown in the POH. I like being at this speed early in the pattern to provide adequate energy to work with if there is a problem-power loss, uncoordinated turn or unintended speed loss. I am religious about maintaining the speed precisely through the two pattern turns focused on coordination. Once established on final the speed can be reduced safely with less exposure.

[randylervold]

42 mph is 1.3 Vso. This speed is the standard for pattern speed and is shown in the POH.

Couple of points I'd like to add to this excellent thread...

First, as Mike indicates above, pilots should be aware of the above information, so even at 42 mph you still have a fair amount of energy and are well above stall speed. Virtually all planes should be flown on approach at 1.3 to 1.4 Vso, depending on the wing and other attributes specific to the airframe.

Second, just my own observation, is that I've found that rounding out to level flight attitude just above the runway and pausing for just a second while a bit more energy bleeds off, then finishing your flare, works well. If you're solo you can add just a touch of power at that point to blow the tail down if you like. Maybe it's just me, but I can't seem to do a true three point landing when solo without this technique.

One thing I think we can all agree on is that there an infinite number of subtle technique variations that can be employed here, all of which are truly a satisfying endeavor to experiment with.

Many of you have relayed RPMs at various points in your patterns or on short final. Personally, I have no idea what speed the engine is turning, once I'm in the pattern -- I'm looking out the window judging my pattern, glancing at my airspeed, and feeling the airplane.

[paulk]

One point I would like to add. If you rely on flying a specific pattern (shape, altitude, speed, flap setting, power, geographic reference) you will not be able to use many off airport locations that can only be landed with non standard approaches.

The Cub gives plenty of feedback to fly by feel with only an occasional glance at the instruments as a cross check. This is true whether its a full slip, curved approach to a short dirt strip with full flap at minimum speed, or a high (well Cub high) speed straight in wheel landing at a busy airport with a Citation breathing down your neck.

My $.02

Paul

[Tahoe Cub]

Until a consistent pattern can be flown in dynamic atmospheric conditions the skill to fly a variable pattern with a variety of terrain, winds, lift and sink is not likely to be developed. "Consistency is the basis for excellence."

I have watched many pilots default to the attitude: landings are all different so each landing I make is different. While every landing is different I believe mastery comes by making every landing the same. The consistency of control is the objective. Once complete control exists you can fly any pattern. But until consistent control exists flying "any different pattern" is only a lack of control. The challenge is that absolute control of an airplane is never really achieved. So striving for a consistent pattern is as close as any of us come to mastery.