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Thread: Landings, techniques, cross winds...

  1. #1
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    Default Landings, techniques, cross winds...

    Hey all: It was suggested that we have this discussion, so I'll start it...by confessing that I need some advice. I've got 65 or so hours on my CCSS, most in Alabama. I'm now in New Mexico, and am finding it a different beast to fly here. WINDS!

    I was landing yesterday in 12G17, 280 on runway 20. I loved my approach, got the appropriate wing down and did my usual full stall with 2 notches flaps (7000 ft paved runway). Got hit with a gust after I pretty much dropped it in (wide runway illusion...I should know better), baby bounce and on the second touchdown I was out of energy and heading at a 45 for the left edge of the runway. I am assuming I overcorrected. Rudder wasn't very useful at that point (the tailwheel was down but I think free castering)...little bit of right rudder and no problem getting straight. But not satisfactory to me.

    So here are my questions:

    1. What are your personal Xwind limits? The book says max demonstrated is 10 mph (I think) but of course that isn't a limit...just an observation during certification. I've done 14kts across the runway (steady) without any problems.

    2. What is your technique for Xwinds? Full stall or wheel it on? I have read some say that gusty winds are better handled by wheeling it. I feel like a full stall minimizes the energy if things do get weird...but as above...I might have been better off wheeling it?

    3. Flaps? Full? 2 notches? How do you do it?

    I am planning on going out and just doing some practicing in the next couple of days. Will do some waltzing, and just generally work close to the runway and make sure I am not allowing it to "drop" in. One of my weaknesses, I think. But practice, practice, practice. No decent instructors out here, so I'll just work it out.

    Thanks for your comments!

    Jim

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    Senior Member Clay Hammond's Avatar
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    Default Re: Landings, techniques, cross winds...

    Wheel it on...without a doubt. I find that in steady or gusty crosswinds, either way, if one tries to three point it you will get drift right their in the transition as you slow to the touchdown. Wheeling it on keeps your flying speed slightly elevated and grants you more authority in the transition to touchdown. Hold the tail up as long as you need to. 15-18 direct across is the most I've handled, and its was trying to pick up the wing at times...no fun. Any more than that and I have landed with an angle across the runway if wide enough, or set down on a crossing taxiway if it is feasible. I've done it, never had an airport type harp at me. The little airports where it is sometimes required are generally run by folk who understand. Big airports usually have a crossing runway, so not a problem there most of the time.

    No flaps for me in heavy wind. Treat it like a big J-3/PA-11 and leave 'em be. If you do use a notch or two, recover the flap as soon as you touchdown...I mean the very instant. Kills the lift and may help you keep it stuck.
    Last edited by Clay Hammond; 10-16-2012 at 03:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Landings, techniques, cross winds...

    Quote Originally Posted by Clay Hammond View Post
    Wheel it on...without a doubt. I find that in steady or gusty crosswinds, either way, if one tries to three point it you will get drift right their in the transition as you slow to the touchdown. Wheeling it on keeps your flying speed slightly elevated and grants you more authority in the transition to touchdown. Hold the tail up as long as you need to. 15-18 direct across is the most I've handled, and its was trying to pick up the wing at times...no fun. Any more than that and I have landed with an angle across the runway if wide enough, or set down on a crossing taxiway if it is feasible. I've done it, never had an airport type harp at me. The little airports where it is sometimes required are generally run by folk who understand. Big airports usually have a crossing runway, so not a problem there most of the time.

    No flaps for me in heavy wind. Treat it like a bug J-3/PA-11 and leave 'em be. If you do use a notch or two, recover the flap as soon as you touchdown...I mean the very instant. Kills the lift and may help you keep it stuck.
    I was hoping you'd weigh in, Clay...even if it is a thread killer (being the definitive answer...). And you are talking about 15-18 KTS, right?

    I agree that what got me in Santa Fe yesterday was the drift in the transition...especially since I transitioned TWICE with my little bounce. Wheeling makes sense, and will be much easier to practice, too...I can do that just fly it down the runway a few inches off the runway...or one wheel it. And of course, if as you transition to tail down you have directional issues you can power up and go around.

    I was just gonna send you a note...but figured it would be good for all to have the discussion.

    Jim

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    Senior Member randylervold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Landings, techniques, cross winds...

    In the interest of broadening the discussion, I agree with Clay and use that technique myself with most planes, but when landing the CC11 (Sport Cub or Carbon Cub) in a strong wind at a larger airport with a big wide runway I'll use 2 notches of flaps and just land at an angle on the runway almost directly into the wind. For me it's just easier that way, call me lazy. One needs to keep an eye on airspeed with this technique though since your normal out-the-window visual cues will be entirely different.

    Then there's the issue of taxiing in stiff winds which is the part that scares me. I've done this sort of near vertical descent in 24G34 winds and got down on the runway just fine but was petrified to turn across the wind to taxi to my destination.
    Randy Lervold

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    Default Re: Landings, techniques, cross winds...

    Quote Originally Posted by randylervold View Post
    In the interest of broadening the discussion, I agree with Clay and use that technique myself with most planes, but when landing the CC11 (Sport Cub or Carbon Cub) in a strong wind at a larger airport with a big wide runway I'll use 2 notches of flaps and just land at an angle on the runway almost directly into the wind. For me it's just easier that way, call me lazy. One needs to keep an eye on airspeed with this technique though since your normal out-the-window visual cues will be entirely different.

    Then there's the issue of taxiing in stiff winds which is the part that scares me. I've done this sort of near vertical descent in 24G34 winds and got down on the runway just fine but was petrified to turn across the wind to taxi to my destination.
    Ok, you're lazy! Seriously, that is a great point and very useful...another technique that I will add to my quiver. I am assuming that you then do a three pointer (or two, if you need one main wheel in the air)?

    Yeah, the taxiing is worrisome in high winds.

    The biggest reason I have brought this topic up is that I am finding that the high country of New Mexico is windy more often than not...so I need to get comfortable with it. I can develop my comfort by practicing...but I wanted to make sure that I was practicing the right stuff...thanks very much!

    Jim

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    Senior Member Clay Hammond's Avatar
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    Default Re: Landings, techniques, cross winds...

    Yeah the taxiing is often the ultimate trick. I landed at Rapid City, SD once in a SPORT CUB with 25-30kts coming straight down the runway and steady. Landing wasn't into a crosswind, but the taxi certainly was. Touched down midfield at the taxiway exit, and then just had to "skitter" across the taxiways into the ramp, always keeping my turns into the wind, there was no way I'd ever be able to make a turn away and down from the wind. Airplane was weathervaning hard into the wind. I was using brakes, power and rudder all in concert to try and get it to the ramp. Ended up crow hopping my way over there. Rolled it into the hangar and they shut the door behind me. Met with a client and then had to go on my way, places to be and all that... Winds were over 30 at this point and starting to gust. Rolled it back out with about five guys helping to hold the airplane, had them park their fuel truck in front of me until I was strapped in, had received initial taxi clearance from Ground, and then was ready to start with two guys holding the struts at the outer attach points. Truck pulled away and I immediately cranked, waved off the line guys and started to roll into the wind and started my crow hopping back out of the ramp and onto the taxiway. Wings are rocking and its a lot gustier than it was previously. Once on the taxiway I was back straight into the wind, taxiing with the tail up most of the time but very slowly still because of the headwind component, had to go down 200 yards or so to the first runway intersection. Never made it. First big gust picked me up about a foot or so and I rode it back down. Told the Ground controller that I might have to go from there, he said try and get to the runway. Next gust picked me up about three feet and I just went full power and started to elevator up, called the Ground controller again and told him I had to go, all he said was "cleared for takeoff"... Climbed up a few hundred feet over the field and then gently turned off downwind towards my next stop.

    One of those experiences you're happy to have only once...

    In moving the airshow Chipmunk that I sometimes do, I was in Goodland, Kansas once and had to make 270* turns into the wind because the enlarged vertical stab and rudder were too big to let me turn 90* away...so there's always that option too if you find the wind too much on the ground.
    Last edited by Clay Hammond; 10-17-2012 at 12:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Landings, techniques, cross winds...

    Clay, I think you're crazy!
    HE HE HE!
    Bill

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    Senior Member Dan L's Avatar
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    Default Re: Landings, techniques, cross winds...

    Hi Jim, glad to see you started this.

    I always wheel-land my Carbon Cub except on skis. I also always get on the brakes as soon as I touchdown and make a short landing. So if I'm landing at a long runway with multiple exiting taxi ways I'll decide ahead of time where I want to exit the runway and then land long so that I'm at the taxi way I want.

    Because I use brakes so much I think I probably do a fair amount of steering with brakes or at least keep myself going straight with the brakes.

    I've always landed with full flaps in the Carbon Cub. I haven't met any conditions yet I didn't like with full flaps.

    In a strong crosswind I'll touchdown with the upwind tire only, stay straight with the rudder and keep aileron in as needed. Once both mains are down I get on the brakes and sometimes throw in some power and brakes at the same time to keep the tail up.

    My tail wheel is free-castering so taxiing in a cross-wind is dicy at times. That said I haven't had it in anything that was as strong as Clay mentioned and needed to taxi very far. At my home airport I only have to taxi about 100 yards from my touchdown point to my hangar.

    On take-offs I've used the angled-across-the-runway technique too. The ground roll is always short.

    I should mention too that I always trim for landings with full nose-down trim. And I leave it in that position for take-off. I like the feel I get on short final with the trim is like this and it makes it easy to make a nice, smooth wheel landing without bouncing. And with the trim like this the tail pops up quickly on take-off.

    Some of the techniques I've mentioned here aren't for everyone. I'm sure some instructors and pilots would warn new pilots to never get on the brakes when wheel landing and some don't even think wheel landings are for Cubs at all. It takes a smooth coordination between brakes, stick position and power. While idle power is the norm for short landings, and it is for me too, as I mentioned I often sneak in some power near the end of a rollout to keep the tail from dropping too hard.
    Last edited by Dan L; 10-18-2012 at 09:56 AM. Reason: added trim comment
    Flying Carbon Cub EX #11 since 2011

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    Default how much wind for a new tailwheel pilot

    I've now got about 6 hours of total tailwheel time, three on my own since my tailwheel endorsement. How much wind should I be flying in for the next 10-20 hours? I don't want to bend my new carbon cub.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Clay Hammond's Avatar
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    Default Re: how much wind for a new tailwheel pilot

    Quote Originally Posted by RickB View Post
    I've now got about 6 hours of total tailwheel time, three on my own since my tailwheel endorsement. How much wind should I be flying in for the next 10-20 hours? I don't want to bend my new carbon cub.
    I think this is a question only you and your tailwheel instructor should be answering. I/we can't/shouldn't tell you how much wind to go out and practice/play in simply because we don't know you. I mean this with all due respect, but some new tailwheel students don't amount to a hill of beans...and others are ready to lay it down like Hoover after just ten hours. Most fall somewhere in the middle. All depends on the person.

    The airplane is capable of a lot, depending on the confidence and capabilities of the pilot.

    If you have easy access to your TW instructor, then this question is better suited for him. If not, feel free to message me and we'll get in contact on the phone so we can talk a little. I am a CFI with a fair amount of time spent in tailwheel.

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